mormonism reviewed

Helpful thoughs for christians.

2010-09-28T04:25:00.000-07:00

As of these last few days, I have gotten an email and gone after on another website I go to to share Christ with the LDS. I keep getting called hateful and mean because I claim Mormons are not Christians. A few people keep telling me they are and I cannot say that. They claim LDS are simply because the say the name Jesus.

So for all of you Christians that get that question brought up to you, you can say this.
Why is it if LDS believe they are Christians and claim to believe the same thing we do, they will not allow us to say we are Mormon, yet teach the Gospel that we believe?

Also why is it, that LDS, RLDS, and the FLDS, all claim to follow JS, BY, believe in the Bible, Jesus, The BoM, the D and C and the Pearl of great price, yet the LDS are adiment these guys are not Mormons and cannot claim they are part of the LDS church? Mormons jump on me about saying they are not christian, when they claim to believe what I believe, yet they play the hypocrite when it come to the RLDS and the FLDS claiming to be Mormons. Just something to think about and ask the LDS.

Remember, Jesus said, Not everyone who says, LORD, LORD, shall be saved or even knows Him. You cannot simply put the name Jesus on a false teaching and have God the father say, well the name Jesus is upon that so I must honor it as my own truth. Rick

BoM verses the Bible Part 1

2010-04-27T08:40:00.000-07:00

Jim Olson said to Messianic

Messianic,

Have you read the BOM? In what ways does it “contradict” the Bible? You realize that what you related is an opinion, and there are millions of people who have studied the BOM and are of the opinion that it does not contradict the Bible. Have you made a serious study of the BOM, or just relied upon the opinions of others?

Jim, I have read the BoM and all the standard works and here is a partial list of contradictions, their are so many I will need to do two or three parts.
I wanted to reply to you about all the contradictions I see in the BoM that do not line up with the Bible. I needed to write this up as a post and not a reply under a topic because there are way to many problems and I was so busy that by the time I was able to reply, the topic was so far down that you would not give a good reply if one at all. So, here we go.

I'm doing my own reading of the BoM too find these problems, not simply scouring the internet looking for them. The list is very long. lets start with this.

1 Nephi 1:2

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
and
Mosiah 1:4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

According to the Bible, God told the Jews to not go back to the Egyptians and you cannot show me from the Bible or history where the Jews are to use the language of the Egyptians.

Egypt is the house of bondage

Exd 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

Exd 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

Another one.

19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.

20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands.

21 And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.

I put this down because according to the Bible, there is only one promised land and the Jews are in it. There is never any mention of any other people group, including Jews having a second promised land.

Deu 6:3

Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do [it]; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

This is not a huge deal in the sense of a salvation issue, but it is a problem just the same.

1 Nephi 5:19 19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.

1 Nephi 6:1
1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in athis part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these bplates which I am cwriting; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my dfather; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.

I only bring these up because you never see any accounts in the Bible being kept on metal plates, plus we have the dead sea scrolls but we do not have any of these plates as evidence.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Nehemiah 8:8

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.

Here is a problem.
1 Nephi 6:4

4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

The reason this is a major problem and contradiction is because God created the nation of Israel to bring people to Him. If you were not a Jew then you were a Gentile, and the best you could do was convert, then enter the court of the Gentiles. So, unless you can prove from the Bible that Nephi is/was a true Jew, what he said cannot be true. God would not tell him this. In the Bible, God did use Gentiles, but not for that purpose.

Isa 49:6

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Here is a contradiction.

10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.

Show me from the Bible about 3 days of darkness being a sign.

To this one I say, "Really?"

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

The Bible does not teach this, Read 1st John 1:8-9

Here are a bunch of verses that contradict the Bible because they mention the "Church" And according to the Bible the Church did not appear until Jesus created it when he walked among us, yet the BoM mentions the Church and all these mentions are hundreds of years before Jesus was even born.

Mosiah 25:22 And thus, not with standing there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.

Mosiah 26:22 22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance

Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.

Alma 4:4-5,9
4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.

5 And it came to pass in the *seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus ended the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time.

9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

There are more verses about the Church, but this gets the point across.

Mat 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

How about this? Alma 7:14

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again

Jesus spoke about being born again, prior to that it was never mention in the Bible, I suspect LDS will blow this off, but its funny how things Jesus said are being said by people that lived before He did, and were never mentioned by the Prophets in the OT.

Here is a big problem. Alma 13:18-19

18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many after wards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.

According to the Bible, Melchizedek had no mother or father.

Hebrews 7:1-3

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The problem with this verse is, the scriptures were not open to everyone and anyone. They were only for the Jews, and the Gentiles did not have the word of God. Plus unlike when this was stated in the book of Acts, in Acts 17:11. At that time, they had the entire OT to go back and search. At this time, they had even less time to look back over.

Alma 17:2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

Act 17:11

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Jesus was not around until the NT, so that's a problem.

Alma 19:29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!

Is this Aaron the Brother of Moses?
Alma 21:9

9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

Either way, it does not really matter because before Jesus came, His coming was a mystery and the prophets did not understand what was going on.

1Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Part 2 coming later, Rick B

Bruce R. McConkie's "Challenge

2009-03-05T13:07:00.000-08:00

I posted this back in Jan of (06) And no one has been able to take it up and give an honest answer. I even posted it on another Blog and the only reply from an LDS person was, I could reply I just do not want to. I told her she was a liar and could not that was why she did not. I showed it to a Mormon Missionary I was sharing with, him and his partner could not answer it, so here it is again for any one who has not seen it. I am posting it again because I was told I would get the answers I am looking for. Rick b

In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.

Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.

I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.

1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.

2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and

3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?

Some questions?

2009-02-10T18:49:00.000-08:00

The questions below were questions I asked an LDS member on the Mormon Coffee Blog I post on. We were talking about the Changes in the Book of Mormon and polygamy, these two topics were 2 different threads, but they were questions I asked, so I thought I would put them out here.

1. Years ago when I was first speaking with LDS, I would say that was 12 years ago by now, Every LDS that I spoke with about these 4,000 plus mistakes denied they ever existed, now you guys admit to them. So some where along the line they have changed.

2. I own a 1920 edition plus the Newest edition, their are changes between them both, so now we have changes from the 1830 edition to the 1920 edition, then more changes from the 1920 edition to the 1980’s edition. The problem I have is, no place in these books is it footnoted that all these changes were made or why.

Then not only are their changes in the BoM, but I am lucky enough to own the original copy of the D and C and the 1888 edition of the Pearl of great price, and guess what? Their are changes from both of the originals of those to the newest editions, and guess what? No mention of those changes in the footnotes.

So you can say what you want, but it is less than honest to make changes that effect Doctrine and not mention it in a foot notes. Then with the modern printing presses their is no excuses for all these typos or errors.

Last point, the 1830 edition tells us that Jesus is God, the BoM supports Doctrine that LDS do not believe today, So Did LDS teach or believe false doctrine back in the day because of mistakes? And I suspect you will say no, but the Bigger question is, why Did God not speak to JS and say, Do not pass out the BoM or sell it because of the many Errors. Sadly God seems to be able to clearly speak to JS and clearly tell him to take on many wives, yet cannot speak to him and tell him these are mistakes in the “translation” that will effect the LDS Doctrine. Rick b

Blogging problems.

2009-02-05T17:50:00.000-08:00

I was saying before on here, I was having problems with my blog. I am not Tech Savvy at all. I post over on the Mormon Coffee blog, their blog was blogger at one time, but they keep changing it to better fit their needs, they were using "Intense Debate" set up, I needed to sign up with them in order to post, as a result Intense Debate was installed on my blog.

That was causing many problems, I did not know if people posted or under what topic, I was able to remove it, but as a result every person that posted under that forum, including myself, was deleted, every post, gone.

I am sorry for the problems, and now it seems, the blog is set up so no one can reply, That is something I am still trying to figure out. But I know many LDS will simply believe I am making all this up and deleted every thing on purpose, so be it, you can still write me at my email address or come post on the Mormon Coffee blog, as I spend much time on that blog. rick b

LDS using Deception?

2009-02-04T08:21:00.000-08:00

GB, I posted this topic back in April of 2006, It is still on my blog and no one ever replied to it, Since I feel this fits you and you feel it fits me, lets talk about it. Now Bill let me add this, I believe you are like this and I stated why, I asked a question about a false prophecy by JS, You refused to give an honest answer and say, Yes it never came to pass but here is why, or you never said, Rick your wrong it did come to pass and here is why.

Instead you said, Jesus said this will come to pass and it never did, so either Jesus and Joseph are both Frauds, or it did come to pass and they are both Truthful. Bill, that is not answering my question. Then I even told you, I will answer your question on how it did come to pass, you will not agree with my answer, then after that you will still not answer my question, and guess what, you proved to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.

So Bill I will state up front, You need to give spefic answers with the reason why I am supposedly lying and being dishonest or I will simply remove you from the blog, I am not going to get into this, you refuse to answer question and simply come on and say, Rick your wrong because I said so, that is not an honest answer and I refuse you keep playing games with you. Below is the topic.

Topic from 2006 to discuss
I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,

De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]

.

Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:

1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]

.

In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.

They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.

The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.

Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.

If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.

Joseph Smith's Vision.

2008-12-17T10:18:00.000-08:00

I want to discuss a topic found in both the 1920 edition of the triple combination found in the very end of the book, and in the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. on pages 106-107.

Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.

On the twenty-first day of January, 1836, the First Presidency, and a number of presiding brethren in the Church, assembled in the Kirtland Temple where they engaged in the ordinances of the endowment, as far as it had at the time been revealed. After this was done the Prophet states that "All of the Presidency laid their hands upon me, and pronounced upon my head many prophecies and blessings, many of which I shall not notice at this time." "All of the Presidency" included Oliver Cowdery and Father Joseph Smith as well as the two counselors, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams. Following this ordinance the following vision and revelation were givin to the Prophet, making known to him and through him to the Church one of the most important principles pertaining to the salvation of men

The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and maravelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-

REVELATION

All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. D.H.C. 2:380-381.

Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation." This is also posted on my blog, under Will all be saved,Part 2

The requirements given do not line up with this vision. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?

We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.

If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fullness of eternity, of exaltation, alone; no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44.)

These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. Overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.

Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)

Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.

We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:

1. One that evokes surprise, admiration, or wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.
2. Strong surprise; astonishment.

v. mar·veled, also mar·velled mar·vel·ing, mar·vel·ling mar·vels, mar·vels
v. intr.
To become filled with wonder or astonishment.

If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.

Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b

More from Tex, the LDS who might leave.

2008-11-28T11:38:00.000-08:00

I am only going to post what was written by Tex the LDS member and I will commit on a few things I take issue with. again here is the link if you choose to go to the RoT board. RoT

Tex Said

I think you are wondering if I have in fact wrote the email to my bishop. Yes I have wrote the email and wanted to have an answer from him. We haven't yet meet since, but the missioanries passed yesterday and I set up an appointment with them for next Friday. Let's see how it goes.

Some of the issues in my email have been discussed here true but poorly I need to say. Most of them can be answered and can have a way of explaining as they were. There's however a few things which are a big blow to Mormon history. Those are the Mark Hofmann case and the Kinderhook Plates. The book of Abraham also falls in the category but is more subjective.

Anyway I just gather all of it and send it to my bishop. His answer lacks a bit of respect from my point of view but let's see how things will develope from now on.

I imagine you were surprised tol. No one have helped me to send the email but I have gathered all needed information from history of the church and other sources which seem to be accurate.

The Mormon church is a great institution, I have no doubts about it. Paying my tithing is the important thing and not exactly where to, although I prefer it to go to a honest institution which and even with all the issues LDS still be (however I have stopped for the time being). I do not regret the money towards the prop 8 thing, but I get very upset to see tithings going towards a forger who have took the Brethern for fool for over 3 years.

I do not see the all LDS community as a dishonest bunch of poeple. I actually believe many of the General Authorities believe they are what they believe to be regardless of they being it or not. It's a chain which seemed to have started with Joseph Smith and have no stop. Don't see it as all bad and have no problem to know of a church called LDS who have a president and other helpers and which produce good works. That is pretty much what other faiths do and have. The issue here is in which is based and if it's not what it claims to be then it's not for me, therefore I pressed the test button, so let's see how it ends or perhaps how it begins :roll:

No matter what the outcome will be, I believe i have learned great things in the LDS church and I have not lied that I have felt right and good about the whole thing. I need however to admit that I have felt good about many things in life before which revealed not to be the right thing later on. I believe that there's a truth called God and Jesus Christ and that is available to all not matter what religion you belong to. Saying that I dismiss fanatics who believe all LDS will go to hell.. that is not simply true at all, neither that LDS worship a different Christ. My issue here is factual points which cannot be understood at least for me in a spiritual prespective or as if a way of God to work. The Mark Hofmann case really hits hard the bottom of the ship, and although I have brought it here in this forum for the first time and gave it an explanation myself, I never quite digested it since I knew about it. The Kinderhook Plates is another one I have never found it here in this forum, but was a hard one to learn. There's another episode in Joseph Smith life called the "Greek Pslamer" which never was discussed here I think, but you guys can have a look out there if you haven't came across yet. I actually found out this one yesterday and is another brick for the collection.

I think it's possible to an LDS to be saved because of his faith in Christ, but the truth and the question I have been asking myself these past days is that if I knew about this skeletons before I joined the LDS church would I still join it? Unfortunatelly the answer to that question is no, and therefore my pause here and time for a serious inspection.

Tex said No one have helped me to send the email but I have gathered all needed information from history of the church and other sources which seem to be accurate.

I find it rather interesting that Tex said he used History of the Chuch and found it Accurate, Yet Many people like me us LDS sources to prove the church has changed history or something and LDS claim were crazy. Dont get me wrong, I am glad an LDS memeber is doing his homework and finding the church is not what it claims to be.

Tex said The Mormon church is a great institution, I have no doubts about it.

I must disagree, the control the leaders have over members to the point that we cannot be saved if we do not enter the temple or follow the WoW is really sad.

Then Tex is starting to find out the church is not as honest as he once believed, how is it great if it is not honest? And if it really is a different gospel and if Paul was correct in Gal 1:8-9 would Jesus or Paul say that the Mormon Church is great? The Bible is clear and the answer is No!

Tex Said

I do not see the all LDS community as a dishonest bunch of poeple. I actually believe many of the General Authorities believe they are what they believe to be regardless of they being it or not.

I agree to a point, Not all LDS are lying dishonest people, but that does not mean they know Jesus or are saved. Read the Bible, Jesus does not teach that if you have a false view of Him, but are at least sincere in you false view, then you will be saved. Jesus said that not every one who says, LORD, LORD will be saved. The people even said to Jesus, Lord, Lord, did we not do miracles in your name? or cast out demons in your name?

Those seem like good things, but still, what did Jesus say to them? Depart from me into everlasting fire.

Tex said, No matter what the outcome will be, I believe i have learned great things in the LDS church and I have not lied that I have felt right and good about the whole thing. You can learn good things, but again, good things cannot save us and if the church is false, then no matter what they teach you, it cannot save you. Then Tex said he felt good about it, well the Bible tells us in Jer 17:9 that the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it. So we cannot go by how we feel.

Tex Said
I think it's possible to an LDS to be saved because of his faith in Christ,

ONLY, If it is the True Jesus, again, the Bible is clear, their are false Gospels, teachers and people trying to lead us astray. Rick b

An LDS Might be leaving the Church?

2008-11-24T14:58:00.000-08:00

I was posting on a board called Reach out trust, Anyway an LDS member going by Duartexas Left this reply. I will leave a link to the board and you can reply to the issues here if you want, but I cannot speak for Teaxs, He has left more replies on the RoT board and I will add a few here, other wise you can speak with him on the board.

RoT

After you get to the RoT main page, click on the LDS section and this letter can be found under the topic called Was my Bishop honest in his answer?

The letter says:

A week ago I decided to elaborate a crashing letter to my bishop. This is want I sent (names will be excluded for privacy reasons)

Dear Bishop X:

About 3 to 4 months ago, I've started to study closely LDS history and unfortunately I have found out lots of skeletons which we or at least I as a Mormon have not been told when I have joined the church and never knew about them until recently. These findings which are not just opinions but facts, have disturbed me a lot regarding the Mormon claim and the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the only inspired and guided church on Earth by prophets and restored by God and Christ themselves to Joseph Smith.

The issues are countless. Perhaps some are familiar to you, some not. Whether you are aware of them or not, the fact is that none of this was ever shown to me and unfortunately it came to a point that it seems others know actually more about my own church then myself.

I know we are told to believe by faith and we are told to rely on our testimony uniquely and nothing else. Yet I believe we also must search study and use our intelligence to compare the truth and not just feelings, because I have had many good feelings during my life about many things and those were not necessarily the most correct decisions not to mention the many LDS members who have joined the church but who never have received and "answer".

So I took the up the challenge to scan the church from its beginnings until today and add to my testimony solid evidence. I was convinced that if the church is what it claims to be, then there's nothing in its own history which can shake the foundations of its truthful nature, because God is perfect and although man is not and even prophets can commit mistakes, any issues need to have an explanation and reason to be.

Basically in my Mormon history research I have found out the following:

Joseph Smith has been exposed as a false translator of ancient records.
In 1843 six brass plate where supposedly found in Kinderhook, Illinois by a man called Joshua Moore. He took them to Joseph Smith to be translated. Joseph came up with a translation, and afterwards they were told to be a hoax which was planned on purpose to prove Joseph Smith as a false prophet. The Mormon church try to distance themselves from this episode, but it can be read and found in the church history (History of the Church vol.5, p 372). My conclusion is that if Joseph would lie about these, could he have lied about anything else? Unfortunately yes. The following is another shocking proof.

Joseph Smith translate wrongly the Facsimile shown in the Pearl of Great Price
This was another shocking thing I found about Joseph Smith. He have acquired these Facsimile when the church purchased for $2400, 4 mummies from an Irish man called Michael Chandler in 1835. These Facsimile could not be interpreted back then by scholars so no one could prove Joseph wrong. Today these can be interpreted and if you research you will find that those Facsimile are nothing else then mummification procedures and actually are common funerary amulets and not related to Abraham or the book of Abraham. Also these papyrus were 2000 years old, so how could have they been written by Abraham if he lived well before that? If Joseph have lied about these how reliable is the translation or even existence of the book of Mormon?

Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr
This was one of the more shocking findings I came across. I was taught in my classes as a young men that Joseph Smith died as a martyr like a lamb to the slaughter likewise Christ. He was actually armed when he was arrested, and when the mob came in he fired six shots which two of them actually killed 2 men. Joseph was not arrested because of his faith, but because he called to the destruction of the press which revealed he was living in polygamy (which he was but denied). I agree that if I have a gun and a mob comes to attack me I will defend myself, but comparing that to Jesus Christ in or any other martyr we can find in the bible, is outrageous in my opinion.

John Taylor, who was to become the third president of the Church, added his testimony concerning Joseph Smith's death:

“He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died. (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp.102-3)”

This was not the Joseph Smith I’ve been taught about. He did not go like Jesus Christ, "who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not..." (1 Peter 2:23) No, Joseph Smith went out shooting.

The forgeries of Mark William Hoffmann
This is one of the most recent hot cases which have happened in LDS history in the beginning 1980's. Mark Hofmann a member of the church born in Utah and who actually served a mission in England, Bristol, apparently have lost his faith in the LDS church long ago probably even before his mission. When he came back he decided to study church history and found out that the church was hiding some parts of his history more exactly beliefs and ideologies of its founders. So Mark decided to create false documents which were supposedly written by Joseph Smith and other important figures of Mormonism back then. He also suspected that the church was interested in acquiring potentially embarrassing documents so they could suppress them. So Mark was up for the test. He have produced remarkable documents which quality was so good that experts accepted as genuine both in terms of time as well as respective signatures and hand writing. Among those and you can find all this info on the net and church history are:

1 May 1980 Mark sells to Gordon B Hinckley the Anthon transcript for $20,000. Pres Kimball back then examined the document with a magnifying glass but never was able to tell it was fake.
2 Feb 1981 Mark sell the Joseph Smith blessing to his son Joseph Smith III stating that the young boy would become the next prophet to the church for $10,000
3 Mar 1981 Mark sells Valley Notes an early Mormon currency certificates to the church for $20,000
4 Mar 1982 Mark sells the Martin Harris Testimony to the church for $20,000
5 July 1982 Mark sells the Lucy Mack Letter to the church for $30,000
6 Sep 1982 Mark sells Maid of Iowa riverboats tickets to the church for $7,500
7 Jan 1983 Mark sells the Stowell Money-Digging letter to the church for $15,000 (sold directly to Gordon B Hinckley) with the parting comment " this is one letter that will never see the light of day"
8 Jan 1984 Mar sells the Salamander Letter to the church for $40,000
9 Oct 1984 Mark sells the Betsy Ross Letter to the church for $12,000
10 Nov 1984 Mark sells the Jim Bridger signatures to the church for $10,000
11 June 1985 Mar sells the McLellin Papers tot he church for $185,000
12 July 1985 Mark sells the Martin Harris Personal copy of the "View of the Hebrews" directly to Gordon B Hinckley for an undisclosed amount
13 Aug 1985 Mark sells the David Whitmer Letter directly to Gordon B Hinckley again for an undisclosed amount
14 Oct 1985 Gordon B Hinckley extends $500,000 line of credit to Steve Christensen to locate and purchase damaging documents with Mark's assistance
15 Oct 1985 Mark have a deal to sell the Kinderhook Translation directly to Gordon B Hinckley for $150,000 but due to a crime Mark was involved the deal never was complete.

Mark Hoffmann took the LDS church for a long twisting roller coaster of nearly 1 million dollars in sales. Gordon B Hinckley have affirmed that they were tricked. But my question is where was the discernment these leaders are supposed to have. This is hard earning money spent from honest tithing people. The church have affirmed before that they do not spend a dime of the Lord's money without His blessing. Well a lot to explain there. It was the FBI which found Mark's forgeries. The church have actually claimed some of Mark's findings as great even Dallin H Oaks commented in the with Salamander letter as a "very close description".

Joseph Smith and his family were active Masons and LDS Temples are a reflection of that.
I was never told that Joseph Smith was a mason and that he have embraced masonry. It's very unfair the church hides these things from the members. However when we go to the Temple and search a bit about masonry then all makes sense. I'm not going into details, but all handshakes, passwords, grips that we use in the Temple are all in Masonic rituals. You can actually verify that yourself here www.ephesians5-11.org/handshakes.htm I admit that there's differences in wording but it's pretty much the same taking into consideration that many things which were part of the endowment a few years ago were taken away and also were similar with masonry Now the big question here is... Masonry came first then Mormonism So only 2 options, either the Mason were ahead of Mormons and received revelation from God about His sacred things, or the God used the Mason's methods to reveal His gospel. Since I do not believe in both the only option left is that Joseph Smith as an active and proved ex-Mason, borrowed all these rites from masonry and brought them to the Temple endowment. So where is the revelation in there? This was very shocking to me to learn and many Mormons unfairly do not know about these things.

Brigham Young taught non Christian doctrines
Pres. Brigham young taught that Adam was God and it was the only God we have to do with as follows
"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Arch-angel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken - HE is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50-51)”

Bruce R. McConkie actually commented in Brigham's Young teaching by saying:

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This [i.e., Brigham Young's teaching on Adam], however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.
“There are those who believe, or say they believe, that Adam is our father and our God,... The devil keeps this heresy alive... It is contrary to the plan of salvation...and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam-God theory does not deserve to be saved." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, talk given at the BYU Marriot Center on June 1, 1980)”

More shocking Brigham Young taught that some sins cannot be cleaned with the blood of Christ but we must shed our own blood as follows:

“There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p.247)”
“There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins... (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.53-54; also published in the Desseret News, Oct. 1, 1856, p.235 )”

and this idea is enforced by J.M. Grant, a member of the first presidency under Brigham Young:

“...there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.49-50)”

Is this a kind of doctrine a true prophet of God would teach? I was never told my church had such involvements. How many Mormons out there actually know these?

Joseph Smith boasted publically above Jesus Christ
What about this quote from Joseph Smith:" I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam...Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it, I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet." History of the Church, in Volume 5 pages 408 and 409.

It certainly does not sound as from a prophet of God at all.

Book of Mormon inconsistencies
The Book of Mormon seems to me to be a largely plagiarized document with no historical, anthropological, and archaeological basis in reality. The Mormon church claims that the Nephites had the Old Testament books which were written prior to the time they left Jerusalem (around 600 B.C.). Therefore it comes as no surprise that the Book of Mormon contains many quotations taken right from the Old Testament (over 18 chapters of Isaiah alone). What is surprising is that many of these passages were quoted word for word from the King James version of the Bible. What is more surprising still is that the Book of Mormon authors were able to quote from books written after 600 B.C. Let's think about this: How could Joseph Smith have translated exact word for word quotes from "reformed Egyptian" into King James style English? Why would these match word for word with the King James translation of the Bible which itself had been translated from Hebrew and Greek? The King James translators who unfortunately lacked the Urim and Thummim did very well to produce the exact translation Joseph Smith did! The Book of Mormon contains many examples of stories and ideas lifted from the Bible (see Alma 19 and John 11). Some examples are:

"...to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life..." 2 Nephi 9:39

"... to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life..." Romans 8:6

"...O wretched man that I am..." 2 Nephi 4:17

"O wretched man that I am..." Romans 7:24

"...steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works..." Mosiah 5:15

"...steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work..." 1 Corinthians 15:58

"...seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." Moroni 7:45

"...seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." 1 Corinthians 13:5-7

There are many more examples of plagiarism in the Book of Mormon. One study found over four hundred. Remember, these are New Testament scriptures that the Nephites did not have. How could they have gotten into the Book of Mormon word for word? Not only does the Book of Mormon use the exact same wording (even unusual wording like "stinketh" found in Alma 19:5 and John 11:39) as the New Testament, but it frequently uses it in exactly the same order!

There's many more but I will not type them all.

Joseph Smith First vision versions. Which one is true?
Another unknown fact to many at least to me recently is the first vision account. Consider the following:
Brigham Young - "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)

Wilford Woodruff - "The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)

Orson Hyde - "Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)

George A. Smith - "...he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels , the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared , Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)

George A. Smith - "[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' " Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78 (1869)

John Taylor - "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right." Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)

George Q. Cannon-"But suppose that the statement that Joseph Smith says the angel made to him should be true-that there was no church upon the face of the earth whom God recognized as His, and whose acts He acknowledged-suppose this were true..." Journal of Discourses, vol. 24, pg. 135 (1889)

William Smith- "He accordingly went out into the woods and falling upon his knees called for a long time upon the Lord for wisdom and knowledge. While engaged in prayer a light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right..." William Smith On Mormonism , By William Smith, Joseph Smith's brother. pg. 5 (1883)

" The angel again forbade Joseph to join any of these churches, and he promised that the true and everlasting Gospel should be revealed to him at some future time. Joseph continues: 'Many other things did he (the angel) say unto me which I cannot write at this time' " Church Historical Record, Vol. 7, January, 1888 [It should be noted here that in this quote the first reference to "the angel" was later changed to "the Holy Being" and the second reference to "the angel" was changed to "the Christ"]

Joseph Smith, Nov. 1835 - "...I received the first visitation of Angels when I was about 14 years old..." Personal writings of Joseph Smith, pg. 84 [It should be noted that this entry has been changed in the History of the Church, Vol. 2, pg. 312. It now reads "my first vision" instead of "visitation of Angels"]

Brigham Young - " Do we believe that the Lord sent his messengers to Joseph Smith, and commanded him to refrain from joining any Christian church, and to refrain from the wickedness he saw in the churches, and finally delivered to him a message informing him that the Lord was about to establish his kingdom on the earth..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, pg. 239

Again the question, which account is the right one if any at all?

Was the name of the angel Moroni or Nephi?
The Times and Seasons Vol. III pp. 749, 753 ("He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."). [In modern printings of the History of the Church, this has been changed to read "Moroni". It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith lived for two years after the name "Nephi" was printed in Times and Seasons and he never published a retraction.]

In August, 1842, the Millennial Star, printed in England, also published Joseph Smith's story stating that the angel's name was "Nephi" (see Millennial Star, vol. 3, p.53). On page 71 of the same volume we read that the “...message of the angel Nephi ... opened a new dispensation to man...."

In 1853, Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel's name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79).

The name was also published in the 1851 edition of the Pearl of Great Price as "Nephi." ("He called me by name and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." (Pearl of Great Price, 1851 edition, page 41) The original handwritten manuscript of the PofGP dictated by Joseph Smith reveals that the name was originally written as "Nephi," but that someone at a later date has written the word "Moroni" above the line. All evidence indicates that this change was made after Joseph Smiths death.

Walter L. Whipple, in his thesis written at BYU, stated that Orson Pratt "published The Pearl of Great Price in 1878, and removed the name of Nephi from the text entirely and inserted the name Moroni in its place" ("Textual Changes in the Pearl of Great Price," typed copy, p.125).

Lastly, in 1888 J. C. Whitmer made this statement: "I have heard my grandmother (Mary M. Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by an holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi". [It should be noted that a majority of the Book of Mormon is alleged to have been translated in the Whitmer home)

Why would the church feel the need to change Joseph Smiths story? The fact of the matter is that Moroni makes much more sense than Nephi because it was Moroni who was alleged to have buried the plates in the first place. But, let's not forget, Joseph Smith said the angel was named Nephi, NOT Moroni.

Conclusion

Much I could type here bishop X in regards to other issues such as the stories of polygamy in which Joseph took already married wives to marry him and so on. But I think there's enough material and research here to make me understand that reasoning and history does not quite line up with the LDS church. These are the skeletons I have recently found and I cannot understand how could God have restored His gospel in such cricked ways. I feel very disappointed for knowing about this things now because these are not opinions but facts.

I know that the church's approach will be to rely on my testimony and that the fruits of the church today are "good". Well I have no problem with the principles of the church. I think the LDS church has many good things, a wonderful organization and a good family oriented purpose. No doubts about it. I did serve a full time mission and I enjoyed every bit of it. What needs to be understood here is the single position of the LDS church. There are many evangelical churches out there. Many may have teachings which we do not agree with them, true. All of them were founded by a man a man like Joseph Smith was. But none or at least most of them, claim the whole holders of truth, neither having uniquely the keys and authority from God, or that were established by a visitation of God and Christ themselves and that are today guided by a true living, seer and revelator prophet. They simply announce they are a Christian church who will share Christian messages and are open to anyone who wish to come and listen. The LDS church also share a message, but it singles itself out as having direct divine input which makes it either the only true church on earth or a church build on a lie.

I know there are stories on the bible where prophets committed mistakes. By committing mistakes as a man is one thing, building a gospel or church upon a lie it's another. No matter the amount of good works the church can do, those will never cover up a lie if a lie exists.

I have tried these past months put this behind my back, and focusing in the good things the church has. But every time I hear in the church someone praising Joseph Smith or bearing testimony about him or the book of Mormon, I really can't take it because I now know things I didn't before and which most of them probably don't. It is really hard to deal with it. It's practically impossible to be an active member of the church and not take Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book of Mormon as scripture. Imagine I being called to teach a class and having to discuss Joseph Smith's life as a prophet or any of these topics after coming to the knowledge of these things, it's very very hard.

I have no hard feelings towards the church, but I feel somehow cheated and by it. I do not want to take any decisions for the time being, but I will need space and thought before taking any decisions. I have discussed it with my wife and she supports me and shares my feelings although (differently because her roots on the church are less deep then mine). In a way I have desire to keep an active member specially because I want my son to have the opportunity to have a Christian education, but if it's a lie then I can't do it. I believe in living by faith, but facts are also important.

As I said in the beginning perhaps you have come across some of these things and I would appreciate your input. Meanwhile I will not promise going to the church regularly and will probably investigate other churches around, but will promise to keep in mind pray and honest thought and not just looking at it negatively. I have shared this with another member of the church named Y who was actually the elder who baptized me back in 1990. His advise was the following:

"While I remain LDS, I am not one of those people who say "I KNOW the church is the only true church". Simply put, I have never had a spiritual confirmation. What I do know is that the church helps me be a better person, live Christlike principles, encourages me to make other people's life brighter, and overall I have a good feeling from being associated with it. On my mission I did not KNOW that it was true, but I believed that the principles I taught about good Christlike living could make some people's life better and hopefully pay off in the afterlife. I cannot speak for you, but maybe the church gave you experiences and opportunities and blessings in your life that otherwise you would not have had. For these things I am deeply grateful, and despite confusing and complicated arguments about doctrines and history, I happily choose to remain LDS. I, for one, do not need to prove it is the true church, or claim to KNOW it, in order to be a happy member.

So, believe me when I say I am not one of those super-mormons that claim to know "without a doubt" the church is true. I don't. I do not know if Joseph Smith was a prophet or if he really saw God and Jesus. I do not know if the book of mormon is true scripture. What I do know is that Joseph's intent for the future church and the members was righteous - and that the fruits of his work (the church today) are good - even though he was far from a perfect man. And I know that the principles taught in the Book of Mormon are ones that reflect the teachings of Christ (even though there are many arguments that it is not a legitimate text). I am not prepared to say it is true, but I am also not willing to call it a con. What I do know is how the church and principles it teaches has blessed my life - and hopefully help me out in the afterlife.

So, I am sorry if I do not have sufficient or acceptable answers to the details of your specific issues regarding the doctrines or history. I'm neither a church historian, nor a theologist. I'm not calling these issues unimportant, but I am saying they aren't important to me - and again if that is the wrong choice then I am willing to take the consequences If it is important to you that every detail line up, and the history and doctrines of the church are completely logical, then I'm sorry to say you'll be disappointed. To me, the church details don't line up, and some things are illogical, but I'm happy being Mormon."

I wish I could take it as easy as him, but I'm really having a hard time to put it behind my back even though the church is a place I like to be and be part of. Anyway I just felt I needed to pass this to you. I preferred to email you over talking personally since there's so much in here. At least you can print this out and read it in your own time and perhaps we will have the chance to discuss it further. When I was last time in your office with my wife I really meant what was discussed and was trying at the same time to put all these behind me and ignore it. But everyday I think about it it gets worse and so I decided to share with you what the real problem is. Maybe by sharing it I can come to a resolution quicker.

Anyway sorry for this huge email and thanks for reading it.

Regards

Duartexas

After 1 week of waiting my bishop decides to answer and this is his reply to me:

Dear Duartexas
I am quite simply amazed at the content of this e-mail, hence my delay in responding
I am extremely disappointed that you have been less than honest in our recent meeting
I am left to wonder what you actually did for two years on a Mission!
Are you telling me here that you went through two years of a Mission without receiving any spiritual witness of anything you taught?
I am sure you will understand why I do not intend to waste your time or mine in going through this e-mail line by line
Like me you have been blessed with the gift of Agency, a gift for which we are all accountable
You are able to choose the path you wish to follow and are free to do so
Should you wish to discuss this face to face I am happy to meet with you, but please be prepared to be totally honest this time

Best Regards
Bishop X

I have my opnion on this answer, but what you fine people make of it?

Bruce R. McConkie's "Challenge

2008-11-17T16:03:00.000-08:00

I posted this back in Jan of (06) And no one has been able to take it up and give an honest answer. I even posted it on another Blog and the only reply from an LDS person was, I could reply I just do not want to. I told her she was a liar and could not that was why she did not. I showed it to a Mormon Missionary I was sharing with, him and his partner could not answer it, so here it is again for any one who has not seen it.

In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.

Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.

I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.

1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.

2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and

3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?

A lying hatefilled mormon.

2008-11-05T10:34:00.000-08:00

Well, once again I am speaking of Wes the mormon hater guy.
his blog for you to see I am not making this up is, hate filled mormon

Here is Wes's newest topic,

"Christians" Really Aren't Christians
I have read the New Testament dozens of times in my life, and I know what words Jesus Christ taught when he was on the earth. I have also spoken with dozens of "Christians" in my life (probably more like thousands), and I am here to tell you I have never met a "Christian" who reminded me of Jesus Christ. I know that might sound harsh, but the truth can be harsh at times. The moment a "Christian" finds out I am Mormon, the most Non-Christian words imaginable start coming out of his mouth, "cult" "wrong Jesus" "not christian" "blaspheme" "wrong" "evil." Do these words remind you of the words spoken by Jesus Christ?

I am a proud Mormon. Years from now when the study of DNA becomes more advanced, they will take a sample of my skeletal remains and tell right away I was a Mormon man. However, if I were ever to stop being Mormon, I would never, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER become a member of one of these "Christian" religions. Why? Because these people that claim to be "Christians" are some of those most hate-filled, depressed, angry people I have ever met, and in no way are they following the teachings of Jesus Christ. I honestly believe many of them have never read the Sermon on the Mount. Or if they have, they believe it was translated incorrectly or some other lame excuse.

True words of Jesus Christ are words like,"Forgiveness" "Kindness" "Peace" "Patients" "Mercy" and "Love." How anyone can read the words of Jesus Christ and not understand this is beyond me.

Now the reason I am posting about him again is because I want to show him for the hate filled lying mormon he really is.

Notice he says on his blog that anyone that does not agree with mormon doctrine is filled with hate, and hates LDS. Here is the problem, their have been many people who have posted replies on his blog, yet after a short period of time he removes all replies and removes all posting to make it appear as if no one even tried to reply. do believe me, leave a post that disagree's with his postion and see how long it lasts.

Then he claims people hate LDS and any one that disagree's hates them, I posted this on his blog to prove LDS say the same stuff,

Read 1 nephi 14:10 "behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

B Young: "with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world" (journal of discourses 8:199).

3rd president john taylor (brigham young quotes mr taylor) "brother taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (j.o.d 6:176).

Heber c. kimball "christians-those poor, miserable priests brother brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (j.o.d 5:89)

No Big surprise here, But LDS prophets have said some hateful things about Christians, and when this was shown to Wes, he removed it so fast their was fire left behind. this shows he hates the truth and only wants one side to be seen. many people have challanged him, but he keeps removing the posts.

then on a website I have posted on, reachout once you get their, go to the discussion board and look for the topic called, Mormon Hater, Go to page 2 and at the very top of it you will find an LDS member named Acelds, this was his reply,

I am disgusted by this individuals attitude and hatred towards RickB.
As a member of the LDS Church, I can only apologise for this individuals attitude towards Rick. Although never having met Rick, I have encountered him many times at Reachout trust and although having had many disagreements with him, I would NEVER stoop so low as to use these tacticts.

Members of the Church are constantly coundelled NOT to argue but to discuss. This individual will be reported to his Stake President [via my Grampa]for the unchristian attitude he has displayed and the accusations he has made which are totally unfounded.

As members of the Church, we are conselled NOT to argue. if I am allowed to, let me use this quote from the following individual:

See the following article:

Ensign » 2008 » July

Sharing the Gospel Using the Internet
By Elder M. Russell Ballard Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Things to Avoid

Every disciple of Christ will be most effective and do the most good by adopting a demeanor worthy of a follower of the Savior.

As you participate in... conversation ... remember who you are—Latter-day Saints. Remember, as the proverb states, that “a soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger” (Proverbs 15:1). And remember that contention is of the devil (see 3 Nephi 11:29). There is no need to argue or contend with others regarding our beliefs. There is no need to become defensive or belligerent...

Then Wes try's saying their is no love and people only preach hate and we never see Jesus in this stuff. Like I told Wes, he needs to read his Bible better, he seems to ignore the Part where Jesus makes a whip of Cords, calls people false prophets and expouses lair's, he forgets the part were Paul calls down blindness upon a false prophet, or says if you teach a different gospel you will go to hell, or if you dont even Love Jesus you will be damned. Wes needs to read the book of Jude, Or Romans talking about giving people over to a debased mind, or reading how God will take flaming vengance upon those who reject then.

Wes needs to read how the bible is full of the apostles teaching about expousing fall teachers and liars, and how Jesus even said not every one is CHILD of God, but some are children of the devil. So I am just pointing this out because Wes is A LIAR AND A HATE FILLED PERSON, AND NOTHING MORE THAN A CHILD OF THE DEVIL.

Wes claims people hate LDS and Hate him, yet for a guy that seems to preach love, he really seems to be lacking in it, because he says stuff like this to me on my blog,

Weston Krogstadt said...

Don't get your panties all in a bunch their Dick. The only reason I even created my blog was to defend my religion against Mormon Hating nostrils such as yourself. So get off your high horse and go preach Christianity to some muslims. Oh that's right, none of you Chrisitians have the courage to preach to muslims do you. You go after Mormons because you know we are an easy target, what a bunch of tough guys you are. You are so lame.
10:08 AM, November 05, 2008

you can find his reply under my topic here,
last letter topic

Wes's reply is the 3rd comment at the bottom of the last letter topic.

Then Wes the "Loving Mormon" said this

Weston Krogstadt said...

Hello asshole, go away dick.
9:06 AM, October 13, 2008

That saying can be found under this topic,

then he says this about me on my blog, this is again from a guy preaching love,
letter topic

Wes's reply is the second and only reply, funny thing about Wes, his reply's are buried down below where no one will see them, that shows he is a dishonest liar.

I guess if he wants to teach liar's and slander people by acting like this and attacking me, thats fine, Jesus said it would happen and Wes happens to prove it. rick b

More from the Hateful mormon.

2008-10-14T11:27:00.000-07:00

Wes who claims to be a loving Mormon and claims everyone that even disagress with Mormonism is a hateful, lying, ungodly person. Well for someone who claims to love People, He posted this article about me along with stealing my photo from my blog. If I were a mormon I would be greatly ashamed of this type of action from People who claim Mormons Never Ever Do this kind of stuff. Rick b

This is Rich Beaudin, an intense Mormon Hater from St Paul Mn. I will just call him Dick for short. He is my latest stalker. He is a very ignorant and uneducated man who has nothing intelligent to add to the conversation and continues to visit and comment on this blog even though I have asked him several times to go away. I have come to the conclusion he is a flaming homosexual who is very sexually attracted to me. This happens a lot to me, people view me on Youtube and become sexually aroused, then they just can't leave me alone. Usually I have this problem only with women, but Dick is an exception. Sorry Dick, you have chosen the most heterosexual man this side of the Mississippi to hit on. I aint interested in you.

mormon hater

This is a loving Mormon?

2008-10-13T12:04:00.000-07:00

Well I gotta say, If I were a Mormon I would be very upset and a little embarrassed. I post about a Mormon Running a blog called, the Mormon Hater show. He claim if we do not even agree with him, then it means we hate him. Well a few things here.

1. I told him that since he refuses to debate and keeps it one sided then he is both a hater, and an unjust Judge, plus he refuses to do as the Bible says and search the scriptures and give an answer to everyone thats asks, about the hope that lies with in.

2. He kicked me off of his blog for simply having my blog set up to view all replys first. That is a lame reason to kick me off, but then he is the hater.

3. he claims he loves me, but then posts this on my blog about me,

Weston Krogstadt said...

Hello asshole, go away dick.
9:06 AM, October 13, 2008

Now this reply can be found under this topic,

http://www.blogger.com/img/gl.link.gif ex mormon

After you get to the Ex Mormon topic, you will find this reply, with His name as a hot link to his site, unless he removes it, but then at least he will know that he is the liar and hater and he will answer to god for that.

But this is sad, a guy calling us Hater saying this about me. Then he removed to replyes from two different people, one asked him to look into the facts and gave a link to a site, then another person gave a link to a site, and he removed both, showing he in fact does not want to here the truth.

And then, under is topic about some guy named Shawn being a mormon hater, someone asked him, what makes this guy a hater, and he has not replied as of yet. Rick b

D and C 129

2008-10-02T12:56:00.000-07:00

Read D and C 129 below, I will explain at the bottom what my point is.

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished. HC 5: 267.
1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to

deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

I was talking with a Mormon and opened up to this chapter, I Read out loud to him verses 1-4, then I stopped and offered to shake his hand, he did not exactly want to, but he did. I gave him a very firm handshake, then flat out asked him, did you feel my hand shake, he said yes, so then I read the rest of the chapter to him.

after I was done, I said to him, since you felt my hand shake, this proves I am a messanger from God, and I have a message for you. Joseph Smith is a false prophet and the BoM is not from God. The Mormon smiled and told me he honestly has no answer for me, but he did smile and liked that. so this is one you can do with mormons and see how they reply. Rick b

The Hateful Mormon?

2008-09-17T09:41:00.000-07:00

I found a blog called "THE MORMON HATER SHOW" Here is the blog adress,
Mormon Hater Show

Here are 3 of his topics.
1.

Does the Savior Want You to Hate?

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Never once did he tell his followers to hate or try to destroy the belief system of others. If you think he did, you need to spend more time reading the New Testament.

Step 3: You Must Want to Change

Only by wanting to change can you remove the hate from your heart. Hate doesn't just leave by itself, it's like cancer, once it gets attached to the body it doesn't leave without surgery. You must make a conscience decision, you must say to yourself, "I will no longer hate any religion, I will let others believe as they wish and will not hate them for their beliefs." It is time for you to decide not to hate anymore.

Remember, Hitler claimed he didn't hate Jews, but only loved Germans.

You Must Admit You Hate

Looks like we still need to work on step one for some people. I will use a recent comment I received as an example:

"A person can think Mormonism is laughably absurd without actually hating Mormons. I like Mormons fine. At least most of them. Heck, my whole family has the disease. But, like any other sickness, hating a person for being ill doesn't help."

This is a very common game played by Mormon Haters, they don't want to consider themselves someone who hates, so they try to convince themselves that they do not hate Mormons. Let me explain how silly this argument is: They wish the LDS church harm and call it things like "a sickness" "a disease" "a cult" in an attempt to harm it. They scoff and laugh at LDS doctrine, calling it "ridiculous", "laughable", "absurd" and "foolish". They stand out in front of LDS gatherings holding up outrageous signs and saying anything hateful they can think of to try to get a rise out of Mormons walking past. But, they claim, they do not hate Mormons.

What if someone told you, "I don't really hate black people, I just don't like Hip Hop or Rap, I don't like their clothes, I try to avoid black neighborhoods, I don't really trust them, I don't like their culture, I would never go to Africa and I have never had a black friend. But I don't hate black people." What would you think?

Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps one can call a religion all sorts of names and wish it harm without actually hating it. Only God really knows.

Now I posted these because this guy might just pull his blog down because he cannot handle the truth. Here is why I say that. He makes the Claim that anyone that does not believe or teach Mormonism is true, hates Mormonism. He says, Anyone that calls mormonism a Cult, hates mormonism. I left replys under all three topics, One reply only answed part of my question, one ignored my question and the 3rd reply completly ignored my question, then He shut down the reply section to all replys.

Under number 3, You Must Admit Hate, here was my rather long reply, and his no real reply to me.

My post was not full of hate and spite, I asked you how you handle LDS hating Christians because, you come across sounding like if anyone tells a mormon they are wrong about what they believe, then that equels hate.

Here are some things posted by you on your blog. This is a very common game played by Mormon Haters, they don't want to consider themselves someone who hates, so they try to convince themselves that they do not hate Mormons. Let me explain how silly this argument is: They wish the LDS church harm and call it things like "a sickness" "a disease" "a cult" in an attempt to harm it. They scoff and laugh at LDS doctrine, calling it "ridiculous", "laughable", "absurd" and "foolish". They stand out in front of LDS gatherings holding up outrageous signs and saying anything hateful they can think of to try to get a rise out of Mormons walking past. But, they claim, they do not hate Mormons.

I do not stand out in front of temples, many that do, do not act like you say, yes some do. I also know that many who do, do it in a respectful way and it is the LDS that attack them. I went to SLC for two weeks, I was almost removed from the group getting a tour for simply asking a question. It was about JS shooting 3 people in jail.

THE LDS had a monster of a guy, about the size of a pro wrestler, all dressed in his FBI looking suit tell me I will be removed for asking questions like that.

Then you say stuff like, if we call you a cult, we hate you, if we do not agree with your doctrine we hate you, etc.

This poses a real problem for you, here is why. Do you tell JW's, Muslims, athiests etc, they are wrong. you will say, No we dont, you might even quote A of F 11 as you did already? If you say that is correct, then why do LDS go door to door telling people that your church is the church they must join?

LDS might not come out and say, your wrong, but by default you do, if you teach I must join your church for all the truth, and I teach anything false, then you really do not follow A of F 11 100 percent, and by telling me I have any false teaching says your a hater.

Have you read the BoM where it teaches their are ONLY 2 CHURCHS, One is of the Devil, is this not hate according to your logic?

If I call you a cult, and that equels me hating you, then your Teaching telling me I am of the Church of the Devil means you must hate me? And if I am of the devil, then that means my Doctrine is wrong, is that not the same as we supposdly do to you?

Have you ever read these quotes by YOUR PROPHETS, PRESIDENTS, and TEACHERS?

1 nephi 14:10 "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Someone please tell me how that is not Hateful or full of Spite. I quote B Young: with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world (journal of discourses 8:199).

I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr Taylor) Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (j.o.d 6:176).

I quote Heber C. Kimball Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (j.o.d 5:89).

So calling us Whore Masters, saying our Doctrine is from Hell, that were miserable priests, were an abomination, this is not hateful?

What about Bruce Mc, I own the oringial Mormon Doctrine from 1958, His teaching on the Catholic Church is full of Hate, anger and spite, Have you ever read it. Wow and your only showing one side of the story, us claiming your wrong. How about Jesus, He told people they were wrong, they were broods of Vipers and white washed tombs, is that not hateful?

What about Paul, saying if you teach any other Gospel you will go to hell, Not hateful according to you? what about Paul calling Down Blindness upon a false prophet? Or Jude, calling people wandering stars never knowing the truth. If they can say this in truth and love and it is not hateful, then neither are we for sharing the truth.

Were you aware of this?
This was a Q and A on a blog I was at.

The July 22, 2000 edition of the Church News quoted Bishop Glenn L. Pace from his April 1989 General Conference address discussing "former members who have become disenchanted with the Church but who are obsessed with making vicious and vile attacks upon it."

They wanted to know this.
Please explain what would be defined as a "vicious and vile attack" upon the Church. What are the elements or components that make up such an attack?

I answered this question by saying.
i believe a vicious and vile attack would include slander and lies. yet i also believe this is what the mormon church is doing, all the while claiming people like ed decker, the tanners, and even me are doing. i believe the mormon church is lying to the average mormon person.

i own a lot of mormon books, most rare or old. i can see for myself the changes the church denies making. i own the 1958 1st edition mormon doctrine, the history of the church 7 volumes, the 1888 edition pearl of great price, plus the newer ones to verify all the changes. what i call the "SANITIZED VERSION'S."

the mormon church says people like me or ed decker lie. well if that is the case and the mormon church teaches the prophet can not lead the church astray, then why is it the average mormon person is afraid to view the evidence for him or herself? i would love to show the changes in the mormon doctrine. if the mormon person does not want to sit and view the evidence, then the mormon person cannot claim i--or any one else--is lying; otherwise that would be slander without proof on their part.

i have yet to see the mormon church come forward and confront the people with truth. they say we lie yet they won't show us the proof in a public fashion. Why? i believe they cannot do it, that's why.

So it seems their is much hate coming from the LDS if we use your logic. Rick b

September 17, 2008 7:39 AM

Now here was his lame no real answers to me reply.
Weston Krogstadt said...
Well Rick, I read your very long comment, and I am now convinced more than ever that you are not only a Mormon Hater but have many issues to deal with beyond my control. This is not a blog to deal with Mormon Doctrine. There are thousands of those, I would visit one of those to preach your hate, then visit a good psychiatrist.

September 17, 2008 9:44 AM

He can say all he wants, I am not here to deal with mormon doctrine, but that is simply a lame excuse, he can say we hate him, yet when confronted with evidence that his church has hate, he ignores it. To add even more evidence of this, After he replied to me, he set his blog up so no one can reply to his topics, and he posted a new topic and is not allowing replys. If this is not a bias and one sided view then I do not know what is.

If I were a Honest Mormon reading this I would be very embarrased that they claim to teach "Love" and yet they really do not. Or I will have some mormon say, he does not speak for all of us, yet LDS gladly rag on non-LDS for speaking against what they believe, yet they do not get on LDS for acting as this LDS does. You allow this kind of stuff and then wonder why people question you guys, here is a mormon who refuses to deal with the truth, yet do the LDS really care? I doubt it. Rick b

I'm now a Mormon.

2008-09-07T17:58:00.000-07:00

On the Mormon Coffee blog I talk on, they have a topic about are Mormons Christians?
In short the answer is No, No they are not, they teach another gospel.

But since LDS really want to be called bible believing christians even though they do not fully trust the bible since it is missing plain and precious parts and it was not translated correctly. And LDS deny the trinity, believe in many gods (millions) to be exact, they believe in added scripture, and works plus grace, and that the gospel needed to be restored.

So since they claim to be Christian, on the mormon coffee blog I am telling people I am a faithful LDS member, I hold the priesthood and teach a restored gospel. the restored gospel I teach is simple, grace alone with out works. Jesus is God who came in the flesh, the Bible is the word of God and no other scriptures are needed. so I just thought people might like to know I am now an LDS member. Rick b

a Reply to Sara's Sister Kathy.

2008-08-27T08:02:00.000-07:00

This is a reply from Kathy, Sara's sister and a very weak reply at that.

Rick,

Finally, a response from my sister.

Sara

This summer has been busy and so this reply is slow in coming. My original reply was because you ask for me to clarify what Joseph Smith said. I did that. Now you want to debate more. I will answer the one point but not go on further.

Debating is not how we are going to build a relationship. A relationship is not built on who is right and who is wrong.

I think it is interesting to use the scriptures that you quoted to make a point about the creeds of men (the commandments of men). The chapter in Matt. that you quote is where the Pharisees are trying to criticize Christ and His disciples because they were not keeping the elaborate additions that they had made to the Law of Moses, i.e. among them the requirement of washing hands before eating. I don't have the room to go into the multitude of additions that the Jews had made to the Law of Moses by the time of Christ but it is well documented in Christian writings. But in this chapter Christ is pointing out that the Jews' outward requirements did not affect the spiritual standing of a person. In other words the person is not defiled by what goes into the body but what comes out o f the body from the heart.

But this is a good example of how Christ did rebuked the Jews (Pharisees) for their outward obedience but how they missed the real intent of the law. He pointed out that their "traditions" actually led people away from the law not to it. ( "Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." (Matt. 15: 6)

And that is why he then quoted Isaiah when he said: (Matt 15: 7-9)
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their amouth, and bhonoureth me with their lips; but their cheart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do aworship me, teaching for bdoctrines the ccommandments of men.

Hence, this chapter of the Bible is a good example of why teaching for doctrine the commandments of men is so dangerous. And yes, this chapter is an example20of Christ speaking out against their creeds or false teachings or "traditions".

My personal favorite in the New Testament of false creeds or teachings is where the Jewish leaders accused Christ of breaking the Sabath because he healed on the Sabath. According to their additions to the Law of Moses this was against the law. Many of the Jewish leaders had become so focused on their creeds (or in Christ's words the commandments of men) that they were unable to recognize the Savior and the power of His work.

Therefore, it can be said that Christ did point out the errors of Jewish beliefs and their false teachings. Christ did not accept "the commandments of men" then nor does he accept them now. Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men brought serious consequences then as they do now as is show quite clearly in Matt 15.

Matt 15 (here is the chapter in its entirety.)
1 Then came to Jesus ascribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the atradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of G od by your atradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, aHonour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, blet him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a agift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their amouth, and bhonoureth me with their lips; but their cheart i s far from me.
9 But in vain they do aworship me, teaching for bdoctrines the ccommandments of men.
10 ¶ And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth adefileth a man; but that which cometh out of the bmouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every aplant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be ablind bleaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Now, lets move on....Kathy

This was the reply I sent to Sara to forward to Kathy.

Hello Sara,
Kathy said,
(This summer has been busy and so this reply is slow in coming. My original reply was because you ask for me to clarify what Joseph Smith said. I did that. Now you want to debate more. I will answer the one point but not go on further.

Debating is not how we are going to build a relationship. A relationship is not built on who is right and who is wrong.)

I would simply write her and be honest and say, Kathy, is it you choose not to debate because you cannot handle the truth? their are so many problems that JS is shown to be a false prophet that it is not funny.

Then so many LDS claim We care for the lost, well since I do not believe in JS or the LDS church, then that makes me lost, yet you do not seem to care enough to share with me where I am wrong.

Lastly you say, (Debating is not how we are going to build a relationship. A relationship is not built on who is right and who is wrong.) The Bible, Book of Jude says, (
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.)

Since the Bible teaches this, this shows 1, Debating is not wrong and, 2 if one of us is wrong then we need to search the scriptures since if we are or will be decived it will lead to eternal death in hell forever.

last of the letter

2008-08-04T16:37:00.001-07:00

Kathy said:
The controversy which you point out begins with the very understanding of the nature of God and the Godhead. Joseph Smith was told that the creeds were wrong and he learned for himself the very nature of God and Christ as he spoke to them. What is ironical is that in the premortal life we all understood this perfectly well and as soon as our premortal memory is restored it will be clear which doctrine is right and there will be no need for dicussion.

I read the Bible and it is very clear on the nature of God and Jesus, JS cannot and does not know Jesus or God the Father. The Bible does not teach and neither does the BoM the premortal life, another funny thing is, if after we are born into this world we forget about our premortal life, how do we even know it the existed? their are about 7-9 different first vision accounts, which one do I trust, and how can I know that if JS changed the first vision 7-9 times and over a time frame from 1827 to 1844 he really meet Jesus and really understands God nature?

Kathy said
Now I recognize that alot more could be discussed about the creeds. But what the Joseph Smith story says is that the inacuracies in the "creeds" are a flaw in the doctrinal foundation of any church who accepts them. They lead away from Biblical understanding not toward it.

Rick said: My church has never once mentioned the creeds in the 9 years I have been their, So I can safely say, I am not being lead astray by false creeds and this does not apply to me.

Kathy said
And since the truth was not completely understood (evidence of that is the roughly 1,000 different Christian denominations all with some difference in their beliefs), therefore the need for a restoration of the gospel.

Since you want to talk denominations, let me say this,
I want to cover the issue of Church Denominations. The LDS keep commenting on the fact their are many Denominations within the Christian Church. I stated that Church Denominations Are not of God, but of man. They are a result of us humans being selfish sinners. The Bible teaches on various things, Yet we as sinful man either don't like what the Bible says, or we cannot agree, so we form Denominations. Some are not due to sin, but simply tradition. Some people like to dress up or wear robes, or sing old hymns not more contemporary music of the day. Some things that are differences that cause a Denomination, are things like, Women pastors. If LDS are familiar with the term, rapture of the Church, their are 3 views to that, Pre, post or mid. People cannot agree to which one is correct. I believe the bible is clear as to the Correct view, it's just people choose to believe what they want to believe. Their is also the issue of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, some people only believe they were for years ago, after Christ rose from the Dead. Others believe they are even for today, Again I believe the Bible is clear on this, but it is more a matter of people want to believe what they want to believe.

Someone wrote me a private Email telling me their are Denominations taught in the Bible, After I posted their were not. They said their are/were 3 different ones in Jesus's day, they are, the Sadducees, Pharisees and Essences. I guess I better clarify, The Denominations are Not Of God. Their might be some found in the Bible as it were, but they are not of God. So I guess if you want to say, they are found in the Bible, show me chapter and verse where they were started by God. Here is something the Bible clearly teaches.

1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Now, If God is not the author of confusion, why would he make many different denominations that only cause confusion? Lets look also at what the Bible tells us,

Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

The Bible teaches us that their are both doctrines of Demons and Men. I believe that their are many Church denominations as a result of both of these. Many Church's today teach that Homosexuals are Good loving people that will enter into heaven. This is not supported by Scripture. Their is a so called Church denomination that sold indulgences to avoid hell, another one by the name of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints, Taught Polygamy was of God. As a result their was a Church split among them, now we have the RLDS and FLDS and they both follow teachings closer to the original LDS Church.

Now, Lets take a walk through the Bible, Looking for either Church denominations or where God started them. We read in the Book of Genesis, God created Adam and Eve. The only two people on the earth at the time along with God. No denomination here. After they had kids time went on, then we come to Noah. Still at this point their is not one mention of a Church Denomination or Church Sect.

Gods Destroyed the earth with water, only 8 people lived. God started over with Noah and his family, Again no Denominations or Sects. After this, the people of the earth started to build a tower to the heavens. God came down and confused their speech so they could not finish this tower. Then after that God called Abram and Sarai his wife out of the land of UR, And founded the Jewish nation from them. Now we have on the planet earth 2 groups of people, The Jews and the gentiles, Gentiles are simply non-Jewish people. Now you can read through the rest of the OT, you will only find the ten tribes of Israel, then they get split up, they all still believe and follow the same God. They might sin and get punished, they might walk away from God for a time, but they still believe in God.

When we get to the NT, We read things about Jesus teaching the people, and hear statements like,

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Notice in these verses here, Jesus states the Pharisees and Sadducees Doctrine was like Levin, meaning sinful and wrong. And we read Jesus put them to silence in Matthew 22:34. If what they were teaching was really of God, why would Jesus say this about them? Lets read more of the Scripture. We read here in

Mar 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A [certain] man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about [it], and digged [a place for] the wine vat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

Mar 12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

Mar 12:3 And they caught [him], and beat him, and sent [him] away empty.

Mar 12:4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded [him] in the head, and sent [him] away shamefully handled.

Mar 12:5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

Mar 12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of the vineyard.

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Mar 12:11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mar 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Mar 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in [his] words.

Mar 12:14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

Mar 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it].

Mar 12:16 And they brought [it]. And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Mar 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

Mar 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave [his] wife [behind him], and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Mar 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

Mar 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.

Mar 12:22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.

Mar 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Notice in these verse here, Jesus clearly speaks against what the Pharisees and Sadducees taught, They were so mad they wanted to kill Jesus, but they feared the people. Then later they marveled at His teachings. Why would they marvel at the teachings of Jesus, if they believed what he did and they really followed him? Then later Jesus says about their question, You do Err and do not know the Scripture.

Check these verses out, The Lord Jesus lays a smack down on the Pharisees, Ok, not a smack down, but worse, pronounces Woes upon them. If they simply are a God ordained Denomination, why Did Jesus say this stuff about them?

Luke 11:37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.

Luke 11:38 And when the Pharisee saw [it], he marveled that he had not first washed before dinner.

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

Luke 11:40 [Ye] fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

Luke 11:41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.

Luke 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].

Luke 11:45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.

Luke 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, [ye] lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Luke 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Luke 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge [him] vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

Luke 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

So Please go through the Scripture and clearly show me where God created various Denominations? They simply are not of God.

Kathy said:
I do not expect you to believe this, but at least I hope you will quote Joseph Smith correctly.
=0 A

Rick said:
I do not expect you to believe this, but at least I hope you will understand the Bible better and understand that your Church is founded on lies and a false Prophet.
=0 A

Kathy said:
By the way, what do you believe about these creeds and the nature of God which they imply as compared to the belief that the Godhead is composed of 3 distinct personages with God, the Father, and the Son having glorified resurrected bodies?

Love,
Kathy

Rick said:
That has been answered in my last 3 replys.

letter 3

2008-07-30T13:34:00.000-07:00

Kathy said:
How much do you know about these councils? Who made the creeds up? How accurately does it reflect Bible teachings?

Rick says, Nothing, dont know and dont care to the other 2.
Some people, I mean Some believers will or might take great offence at my view, But I read the Bible and the Bible only. The creeds are not and never will be scripture. The creeds are just like a lot of books out their on the market, they are well meaning believers trying to share their thoughts on scripture and help people out, yet like the creeds, no matter how much of the bible they read and quote from, they are not the real Word. the Bible in Acts 17:11 says search the scripture, not search the creeds.

I could also say this, what did believers do before the creeds existed? they read the word of God. What about LDS, They try and point out how the creeds are not scripture, so they say you christians are way off because you have these creeds, yet LDS are blind to the fact that they have LDS book stores, and LDS authors and web sites that have mere men giving out their own thoughts, kinda like the creeds. Why is it ok for LDS to use books written by men in the same fashion as believers using the Creeds?

Kathy said:

"In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible." (Jeffrey R. Holland, Oct 2007 conference)

Harper’s Bible Dictionary (not a Mormon dictionary) records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099)

Rick says:
Just because the Word Trinity is not found in the Bible does not mean the trinity is false, the Concept or principal is found in the bible. Here is scripture.

We read in Genesis 1:1 God (Elohim) this is a plural noun speaking of more than one person. Yet (Bara) is the Hebrew verb for Elohim but it is in the singular. We find 3 in one. We again find this in verses 3:22 where God says man has become like one of us. And we find it in 11:7 at the tower of babal, 3 in one. Then we read in the 10 commandments number 3 says You shall have no other gods before me.

We read in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear 0 Israel the Lord our God is ONE." God, Not 3 separate Gods. Now I know mormons claim we are not worshiping other gods, Just God the Father. But the scriptures clearly teach there are no other Gods period. Read Isaiah 45:6,14,18,21,22 46:5,9 47:8,10 and 48:12 these all teach their are no gods before me and none will be after me, God states I know of NO OTHER Gods. So if the mormon Godhead is true, and God was once a man as mormonism teaches then his Father would be a God, so God would know about him would he not? If Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods, God the Father would know about them would he not? So if God the Father states their are no Gods before him or after him How can Worthy LDS members become gods, or how could God have a father who is a God, or how could Jesus or the Holy Spirit be Gods and God the Father not know about them? This tells me we can find the 3 in One Godhead (Trinity).

Then we can read many places in the Old Testament Like Joshua 5 for example about the Spirit of the Lord. This angle of the Lord tells Joshua to remove his sandals for he is on Holy Ground, we read God saying the same thing to Moses in the burning bush. Here we find an (Angle) Saying your on Holy Ground and allowing a mere human to worship Him. Every case in the bible where God sent an angle to give a message to someone, and that person tried to worship the angle we find the angle saying get up, get up do not worship me. The one angle that wanted worship was lucifer and look what happened to him.

Now we read in Isaiah chapter 6:3 The angles are flying and saying "Holy Holy Holy", Now are they saying Holy to 3 different Gods Or One God but in the triune form? Now Read Revelation 4:8 again we find the angles Saying "Holy Holy Holy", they are speaking about 1 God. We find the trinity. Read in Genesis 48:15 When Jacob is about to bless Josephs 2 Sons, Jacob mentions God twice then mentions the Angle who redeemed me, How can a plain angle redeem anyone? I see the Trinity here. Not 3 separate Gods.

We read in Exodus, God speaks to Moses in the burning bush, God says "I AM" Read over in John 8:58 Jesus says "I AM", this is the same "I AM", God used in Exodus, Jesus is not saying he is a god, He IS saying He IS GOD. Even the Jews understood this, that is why they tried to stone him. We read in Exodus 17:6 God the Father told Moses to strike the rock and water will come forth, Then over in Numbers 20:8 We read Moses was supposed to SPEAK to the rock and water would come forth, instead he struck the rock again. Then we read in 1Corinthians 10:4 that Rock was Christ. The example God was trying to set up but Moses blew it was, Jesus was that Rock, he was crucified for us, The Rock was struck. From that point on we only need to speak to Christ (The Rock) Not crucify him all over again (Strike him again) Here we see hints of the Trinity.

Know lets look at Verses that say Jesus is God, not a god.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God."

Romans 9:5 "Of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God, amen." Notice it says Christ is the blessed God.

Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." Here again we read Jesus is God.

1st John 5:20 "And we know that the son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we me know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in his son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life."

Acts 5:3-9 Here we see How the Holy Spirit is God, Not a god.

Act 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

Act 5:4 "While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

Act 5:5 "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."

Act 5:6 "And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him."

Act 5:7 "And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in."

Act 5:8 "And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much."

Act 5:9 "Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."

We read here how he lied to God then he lied to the spirit and it made the spirit out to be God.

So here again we find the trinity, God the father is God, we find the scriptures teach Jesus IS GOD, and we find scripture that states the Holy Spirit is God.

We read in Matthew 28:19 Where it says to make disciples of all nations and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, this is said in the singular not the plural.

We see the trinity in the Death of Christ. Who was responsible for his death?
The father, Jesus says in Psalm 22:15 You, this You is Jesus speaking of the father being responsible for his death. 22: "You have brought me to the dust of death."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE (God) Gave his only begotten Son."

Romans 8:32 "He (God the father) who did not spare his own Son."

But we know read Jesus was responsible for his death.
John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down myself."

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me, And the life which I now live in the flesh ; I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and GAVE HIMSELF for me."

Now we read in Hebrews 9:14"how it was the Spirit of God who was responsible for the death of Christ."

9:14 "How much more shall the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal spirit offered himself with out spot to God." Here we again find the trinity.

Now lets find the trinity with in the creation. Who created the heavens and the earth?

God the father. Psalms 102:25 "Of old You laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands."

Jesus Created the Heavens and the earth, John 1:10-11
10:"He was in the World, and the World was made through him, and the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own and his own did not receive him."

Colossians 1:16 "For by Him (the Him Is Jesus, read verse 15) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him."

The Sprit Created.
Genesis 1:2 "The earth was with out form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

Job 26:13"By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent."

OK, Now lets move on to some verses in the Book of Mormon that show the Trinity.

Under the page that states "an account written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi" it says near the bottom of the page in my copy, "And Also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD"

Question, how can Jesus be THE ETERNAL GOD, if He is a separate God?

Now under the testimony of the 3 witnesses, it ends by saying, "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen."

Here we read in the oringal 1830 edition, 1st Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father. Not only has this been changed from the oringal, but how can the Lamb of God (Jesus) be the eternal God?

Read 1 Nephi 11:32 1830 edition "And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God (Jesus), that He was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." Again the Son is called the Eternal God. why? also why the change or addition of words?

Here is another very serious change, 1st Nephi 13:40 1830 edition. "And shall make known to all kindred's, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved."

Now here in a more recent edition, 1920, 2 Nephi 26:12b says, "Be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." Yet again Jesus is called the Eternal God.

2 Nephi 31:21b says, "And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is ONE God, without end. Amen."
Notice they say they are ONE God and it is the doctrine of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Mosiah 7:26
26 "And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ."

27 "And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth."

28 "And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?"

In the verses Above we read that they killed people for teaching Jesus IS GOD, Not A God, But God.

Mosiah 15
1 "And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."

2 "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son."

3 "The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son."

4 "And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth."

5 "And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffered temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffered himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."

6 "And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."

7 "Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father."

8 "And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men."

Again God is Jesus, Jesus is God.

Mosiah 16:15
15 "Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen."

And LDS believe the trinity is a false teaching, your own book teaches it. Not to mention some changes to deny this were made between the 1830 and 1980 edition. Why?

Know we read here in Alma, a Mormon Prophet claiming Jesus is the eternal God and their is only One God, not Two or Three or more.

Alma 11:21-41
21 "And this Zeezrom began to question Amulek, saying: Will ye answer me a few questions which I shall ask you? Now Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil, that he might destroy that which was good; therefore, he said unto Amulek: Will ye answer the questions which I shall put unto you?"

22 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being."

23 "Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations?"

24"Believest thou that there is no God? I say unto you, Nay, thou knowest that there is a God, but thou lovest that lucre more than him."

25 "And now thou hast lied before God unto me. Thou saidst unto me—Behold these six onties, which are of great worth, I will give unto thee—when thou hadst it in thy heart to retain them from me; and it was only thy desire that I should deny the true and living God, that thou mightest have cause to destroy me. And now behold, for this great evil thou shalt have thy reward."

26 "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?"

27 "And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God."

28 "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?"

29 "And he answered, No."

30 "Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?"

31 "And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me."

32 "And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?"

33 "And he said unto him, Yea."

34 "And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word."

35 "Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God."

36 "Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins."

37 "And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."

38 "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"

39 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"

40 "And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."

41 "Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works."

OK, Now I said the LDS Godhead is confusing and not the Trinity. Here are some reasons why this is so. I just gave much LDS scripture on the Trinity. Yet the LDS has made major changes to teach otherwise. Also I gave a discourse in Alma with a Mormon Prophet who is teaching ONE GOD ONLY. I gave much scripture from the Bible, Book of Isaiah Where God said their are no other Gods. Now we read in D and C 1:14 "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."

Are you listing to the Lord, The apostles, and the Prophets? I showed you what they said and teach. But lets add some more confusing LDS scripture. Read Pearl of Great Price, book of Moses 1:6b "But their is no God beside me, and all things are present with me." Even the pearl teaches no Gods besides God alone.

But then to add even more confusion we read in the book of Abraham chapter 4,"God says, Him and the other Gods that he sat in counsel with created the earth. So Did God and the prophet Alma lie when they said their are no other Gods? One Last confusing Tidbit. I own the oringal Doctrine and Covenants with the oringal Lectures of Faith included. They teach that the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God, not a God. So even though LDS no longer hold the lectures as Doctrine, It was taught by the (Prophet) Joseph Smith, And he taught the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God. Which is it? Was JS wrong? If so what else could he be wrong about.

Letter 2

2008-07-23T17:16:00.001-07:00

Kathy said God said this:
"It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men."

Then Kathy says,
"What creeds is He talking about?"

Rick says:
Where does God in the above statement say "Creeds"?

Kathy uses or should I say, adds the words Creeds, Then while were at it, Show me this from the Bible, Give me chapter and verse, "It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men." It simple is not their. As a matter of Fact I can give a verse where Paul Speaks and says, this is from me not God, so did Paul do what JS claims God is displeased with?

Read "1Cr 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.
1Cr 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."

I am speaking about verse 6.

Kathy says:
Well, I think to start with it is the Nicene Creed and other creeds and beliefs that came out of the church councils of the 4th and 5th century and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churches.

Rick says: First off, you start by saying "I THINK"
Your thinking something is not evidence, then you say, "and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churches."

Can you support that with evidence? By evidence I mean, name the Churchs that except these creeds and teach them as Doctrine, that will be tough since you have to have gone to these Churchs to know this and if you did not go to them, then you must have contacted them and asked them. Then after you give names and hard evidence to prove this, let me add, I go to Calvary Chapel Church and we do not mention, teach or hold to these creeds. So even if their are Churchs that teach this, thats like saying, The FLDS call them selves Mormons and they preach and teach Pologamy, so does this mean LDS teach and believe the same? Of course not.

Kathy says: "By the way, it is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an example of doctrine or revelation being given through a large group of people (council or committee) where they debate and vote on what is true."

Rick says: This is not exactly true, here is the only example that is found in the Bible, "Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood."

Now if that is not a group of men voting on something, and we can see it is not God saying to the men don't do this, then I don't know what else you would call it. So yes we see one account in scripture. Since the next section brings up the trinity and that will be long, I will reply later. Rick b

A Letter from an Ex-mormon.

2008-07-23T08:31:00.000-07:00

Hello Everyone,
Well as I said Before, I post a lot on the Mormon coffee blog. Also know as the Answering lds website. Before they had the blog they had a Q and A section, I would answer question their and leave my e-mail address for people to write me with questions, It's great, over the years I have had about a dozen people, both LDS and believers write me, wanting to talk. I just recived a letter the other day from an Ex-Mormon trying to share Christ with her LDS sister.

So I am going to post the Letter she wrote with my reply to her, I will keep adding more in new posts as I both reply to her letter and then reply back with questions from her sister. I will post the first letter I got from her in Black. Also I removed all last names.

Rick,

Finally, after years of trying to my Mormon sister to discuss the church, she sends me this email. I think I finally got to her when I said that since she's planning on going on a mission this autumn with her husband, she might want to learn to ":give an answer for her faith." I'm just wondering if you have time to tell me how you would respond to her email.

Blessings,

Sara (BTW, I got your email off the answeringlds webcite)

Sara,

Since this is the second time that you have mentioned the statement of Joseph Smith and, since you said that " I'm just confused - hoping maybe you could clear that up for me.", I feel it important to help you understand what Joseph Smith said.

I give the following to help you understand Joseph Smith's teachings.

First, let me quote what Joseph Smith wrote:

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those profesors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, verse 19)

Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."

What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have intruduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the creeds;" see Matt 15: 9)

It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel.

It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men.

What creeds is He talking about? Well, I think to start with it is the Nicene Creed and other creeds and beliefs that came out of the church councils of the 4th and 5th century and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churc hes. By the way, it is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an example of doctrine or revelation being given through a large group of people (council or committee) where they debate and vote on what is true.

How much do you know about these councils? Who made the creeds up? How accurately does it reflect Bible teachings?

"In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible." (Jeffrey R. Holland, Oct 2007 conference)

Harper’s Bible Dictionary (not a Mormon dictionary) records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099)

The controversy which you point out begins with the very understanding of the nature of God and the Godhead. Joseph Smith was told that the creeds were wrong and he learned for himself the very nature of God and Christ as he spoke to them. What is ironical is that in the premortal life we all understood this perfectly well and as soon as our premortal memory is restored it will be clear which doctrine is right and there will be no need for dicussion.

Now I recognize that alot more could be discussed about the creeds. But what the Joseph Smith story says is that the inacuracies in the "creeds" are a flaw in the doctrinal foundation of any church who accepts them. They lead away from Biblical understanding not toward it. And since the truth was not completely understood (evidence of that is the roughly 1,000 different Christian denominations all with some difference in their beliefs), therefore the need for a restoration of the gospel.

I do not expect you to believe this, but at least I hope you will quote Joseph Smith correctly.
=0 A

By the way, what do you believe about these creeds and the nature of God which they imply as compared to the belief that the Godhead is composed of 3 distinct personages with God, the Father, and the Son having glorified resurrected bodies?

Love,

Kathy

Kathy,

I take it you are not interested in doing the Bible study online???? You didn't give an answer.

When I finally saw the truth about Mromonism it was because a French pastor in Hungary had the courage to speak the truth to me. I would much rather have truth spoken to me than anything else. I guess we're polar opposites on that one.

I'm very confused about Mormonism because you quote from Catherine Marshall yet Joseph Smith said that all Christian churches/ministers (including her husband) were an abomination and their teachings wer false. Did the church change or did they just change the test of the First Vision? I'm just confused--hoping maybe you cuold clear that up for me.

Happy 60th! And yes, you are beginning to seem like Mom. Mom kept her world confined to within her four walls, pretty much.

Sara

NOW, Here is my first reply to Sara, I will reply in sections as it was so long. Rick b

Hello Sara,
Here is part of my reply for you. it is pretty long so I will send more later. Rick b

Hello Sara, I will break down the question and reply to it in sections. Also I don't know if you will even agree with me on my position of the creeds issue, so that might cause problems, but you can let me know your thoughts.

Kathy said:
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, verse 19)

Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."

What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have introduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the creeds;" see Matt 15: 9)"

Rick Replies with.
Here are a few problems I have with this, When Jesus walked the earth he took issue with what the so-called religious leaders said and taught, He did not point out their so called creeds, he called the teachers to account, Scripture teaches us that the issues of the heart, flow from the mouth.

"
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Ma t 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

Now let me go back over something again, Kathy said, JS said,
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;"

JS claims all the "Professors" are corrupt. So If JS claims God said this then how can Kathy say this,
"Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."

If the Church is a mere building, then it stands to reason a building cannot speak, But Jesus taught we the people are the church, Then are not these so called Professors just another title for the Minister? if so, then yes they are being called corrupt.

Remember As I pointed out, Jesus did call the religious leaders, ministers, teachers to account, even if they were teaching commandments of men. So Why would God change that when he spoke with JS?

Kathy said:
"What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have intruduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the c reeds;" see Matt 15: 9)"

Rick replys, Question? If Kathy Quotes from Matthew saying Jesus was rebuking them for teaching commandments of men, then why did Jesus not set the record straight right then and their? why did He wait till He died, Rose again then let almost 1800 years pass to bring around JS? Then after JS came on the scene, He found the Golden plates but buried them since he was told the time was not right, then he waited many years, this makes zero sense.

Kathy said:
"It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel."

Rick Said: Does Kathy not read the BoM or read so called teachers of Mormonism? Here is what the BoM says,
"1 Ne. 14: 3, 9-10, 17
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

&nbs p; 9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

1 Ne. 13: 6
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

1 Ne. 22: 23
23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular i n the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet."

Now let me point out again, Kathy said: "It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel."

Rick says, Now please show me from those verse in the BoM where it teaches other churchs have some good teachings, or are trying to be honest. It simply does not teach that, so it seems Kathy is wrong.

Now here is what one LDS "teacher" teaches, and in his reply he quotes from the LDS BoM and Pearl. Let me first add that, Many LDS have even tried to get around the issue of the 1st Nephi quote, about their is only two churches. The LDS know that when the B.O.M Speaks about the True Church being the Lamb of God, it speaks about their Church. So it would stand to reason, ANY church that is Not LDS related does or could fall under the Church of the Devil.

"In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie Page 137-138 Under Church of the devil He says just what I said.

The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL Churchs or organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.

Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page.

Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Hence we find our Lord saying,

"he that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."(Matthew.12:30)

And hence we find Alma inviting the wicked to repent and join the true Church of Christ and become the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

"And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? he ask's. "Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and know, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil"(Alma 5:39; Jos. Smith2:19.)"

Acts Chapter 7

2008-07-20T16:04:00.000-07:00

Read over the portion of Acts I posted, then read my thoughts.

Act 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Act 7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
Act 7:4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Act 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not [so much as] to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when [as yet] he had no child.
Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat [them] evil four hundred years.
Act 7:7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.
Act 7:9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
Act 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
Act 7:12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.
Act 7:13 And at the second [time] Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.
Act 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to [him], and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
Act 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
Act 7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem.
Act 7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
Act 7:18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
Act 7:19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
Act 7:20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:
Act 7:21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.
Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
Act 7:23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
Act 7:24 And seeing one [of them] suffer wrong, he defended [him], and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
Act 7:25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
Act 7:26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
Act 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
Act 7:28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?
Act 7:29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Act 7:31 When Moses saw [it], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold [it], the voice of the Lord came unto him,
Act 7:32 [Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Act 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
Act 7:34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Act 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Act 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for [as for] this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Act 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Act 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

I posted this because this is another thing for LDS to think about.

The LDS BoM quotes from the Bibles OT, Yet when Stephen gave a break down of a good portion of the OT and some prophets, he never mentioned any BoM prophets. Please do not give the excuse, well the Mormon people were in a far away land and they did not know each other. That is a bogus statement if I ever heard one. The reason why is, Adam down to Noah we have the records of what they did and places they went, yet after the world wide flood destroyed the entire earth, so we dont know where Adam down to Noah lived since everything was destroyed so badly. Then the Bible is made up of, 40 different authors over 1000's of years, and the BoM claims that some Mormon People were around the tower of Babel along with people in the Bible.

So the question is, why can the BoM quote OT bible prophets, but no prophet or any human for that matter has ever quoted from the BoM. Stephen was a good example, that was why I used him. Rick b.

PS, Yuki where did you go?

some questions for LDS to think about.

2008-07-02T10:15:00.000-07:00

Well, I am so busy I do not know how often I will be able to post. So if I post only once a month or longer I at least want to leave some questions for LDS to think about.

Joseph Smith said, No man can see God and live, without the Priesthood, D and C 84 19-22.

So if that really is true, How could JOSEPH SMITH, Really see God the Father and Jesus Christ in the First Vision and still live, Since when JS claims he saw them he did not have the priesthood.

Joseph Smith Also said:
Joseph Smith declared that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, . . . and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book” (History of the Church, 4:461).

If this is true, why was/is their over 4,000 changes to the BoM? So much for correct.
Add to that, the way JS translated the BoM by sticking his head in a hat and telling his buddy oliver the letter that came to light in the hat. if Joseph told Oliver the letter (A) and Oliver wrote down the letter (A) then the letter JS saw would disappear for Good. But if JS told Oliver the letter (A) and oliver wrote down the letter (B) the letter (A) would remain. So it should be impossible for their ever to have been one single mistake in the BoM.

Jesus said about the OT, you search the Scriptures for the testify of Me, we really do see Jesus through out the entire OT, Yet this is not the case with the BoM. We find some cases of out right plagiarism in the BoM.

So if we look at it like this, if something is word for word, like entire Chapters of the Book of Isiah from the Bible are found in the BoM then why do we need them in both books? so if we simply remove the teachings from the BoM seeing how we have them in the Bible then we really do not have much left in the BoM, and since we do not have much left in the BoM, how is it now going to get me closer to God? What is left in the BoM after you remove the teachings that are already found in the Bible that will teach me or get me closer to God?

We read in the Bible over 1,800 prophecies. so how many do we read of in the BoM? I will post more questions to think about as I get time. Rick b

More on Ralphs reply.

2008-06-04T11:09:00.000-07:00

Ralph's reply said

Old Testament Themes
The Book of Mormon was written to show us “what great things the Lord has done for [our] fathers; and that [we] may know the covenants of the Lord” (Book of Mormon title page, paragraph 2). The “fathers” mentioned here refer to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Joseph, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, King Benjamin, King Mosiah, Alma, and many others. They were of the house of Israel and were under the same covenants with God as members of the Church are today. The family of Jacob, whether in Old Testament or Book of Mormon lands, were the preachers of righteousness who have laid before us in the scriptures the doctrine of Christ, even faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Adam, Moses, Isaiah, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, and many others have written in great detail and clarity of the eternal gospel and its beginning from the foundation of the earth. They wrote and testified of the Creation, the Fall, Lucifer, the redemption of all mankind through the Holy Messiah, salvation by grace, and the resurrection of the dead.

I really need to ask, why is it LDS teach the BoM people are our fathers, and that they taught us things needed to make our faith stronger, Yet Jesus and the Disaples taught from the BoM, yet they never once quote from the BoM prophets or people. LDS try and say the reason is simple, they were in a different country or far away, but that is really bogus for a few reason.

1. The BoM quotes from the Bible, even the OT prophets and in great Depth, yet Jesus never quotes from the BoM.

2. the Bible was written by 40 authors over 1000's of years most never knew each other and lived 1000,s of miles apart, Example, Moses did not live in the same place or time frame as Noah, then since the entire world was destoryed by a flood, we will never know where noah lived compared to moses. yet Jesus quoted from many Books and time periods of the Bible.

According to the BoM, LDS people were alive and mingled with people of the Bible at the time of the tower of Babel, yet Jesus only quotes the Bible, never the BoM.

More from Ralph,

Another major emphasis of the Old Testament is the scattering and gathering of the house of Israel. Here again the Book of Mormon offers invaluable perspectives. One of the sons of Jacob (Israel) was Joseph, who was sold into Egypt. Joseph became a leader in the court of Pharaoh (see Gen. 37–41). To Joseph were born two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen. 41:50–52). The descendants of these two sons are “the fruitful bough” of the house of Israel “whose branches run over the wall” (Gen. 49:22), meaning they were scattered across the earth. As the Book of Mormon account opens, we are introduced to Lehi, “a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt” (Alma 10:3).

If what Ralph posted was true, then as I said Above, why does the Bible not teach this and if Jesus quotes back to Jacob, why not mention People from the BoM? Simple, the BoM is inspired of Satan.

Ralph said

The story of Lehi and his family in the Book of Mormon is a record of a scattered remnant of the house of Israel. Yet the Book of Mormon introduces all of scattered Israel to the Restoration and latter-day prophets who preach the same gospel of Christ taught by ancient prophets.

Paul teaches in Gal that Any one who teaches a different Gospel will go to Hell. Lately to my surprise, LDS are being honest and admitting they teach a different Gospel. They teach theirs is correct and ours is false but at least they admit it is different. If the want to say we preach the same Gospel then go back to my Bruce Challange and Answer this Question,

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?

Please do not ignore this or make excuses as to why you cannot answer it, Just answer it. If these 10 things are not found in the Bible or BoM, how can the BoM be true or teach us things that are needed?

Ralph said

A third significant subject presented in the Old Testament is the role of prophets. Prophets are called by God in all ages. Their duty is to teach the everlasting gospel, to cry repentance. They invite all to come to Christ and be saved in the kingdom of God. Whether from the watchtowers of the Old Testament (see Isa. 52:8; Jer. 6:17; Ezek. 3:17), those of the Book of Mormon (see Mosiah 2:8; Hel. 7:10–14), or today’s pulpits alive with latter-day testimony, prophets speak and the message of salvation is given. The Book of Mormon helps us understand how Old Testament prophets held the keys and authority of God and conducted their labors in preparing families for exaltation through the great plan of God (see JST, Gen. 14:25–40, Bible appendix; Alma 13:1–21). Righteous priesthood holders administer the gospel of Jesus Christ and establish the Church in every dispensation.

If this is true, then again I ask, why does Jesus not quote from the BoM, Why is the BoM quoting whole chapters from the Bible, remove that since it is already in the Bible and we really dont have much left to the BoM.

The quote said, Prophets teach the way of salvation. One question that keeps coming up among believers is, Name one LDS prophet in the Last 200 years that gave an in depth Prophecy, they have not and they will not. Because they teach lies. Then they speak about how we must hold priesthood Authority, so here is my reply to that.

priesthood topic

I will post more as time permits. But to all the LDS who think, great, Ricks not posting much, I am very Active on the Mormon Coffee blog, So yes I am still defending the truth and fighting the lies of your false god and prophet, I will not stop fighting the lies of your father till I am called home with Jesus my Lord and Saviour. Rick b

mormon coffee

Reply to the last topic

2008-05-16T15:13:00.000-07:00

The Post about the BoM being a guide for the Old Test, is supposed to be a form of a rebuttal to this topic that I did. challenge

Now the last post said The Old Testament can be better understood and believed by gleaning further light and truth from the pages of the Book of Mormon, our second witness for some of the events, themes, prophecies, and teachings of the Old Testament. The prophet Mormon certified this idea and explained our Heavenly Father’s intent in bringing to light the Book of Mormon: “For behold, this [the Book of Mormon] is written for the intent that ye may believe that [the Bible]; and if ye believe that [the Bible] ye will believe this [the Book of Mormon]” (Morm. 7:9).

Ok, I read the BoM from cover to cover, I must say, the quote above is bogus. I've Done two topics already on my blog pointing out how the OT and the BoM contradict each other. Read here, Barge verses the ark And read this, A tale of two towers

Then in the above quote, he mentions "Prophecies", I cover on my Blog False Prophecies by JS.

Then in the quote he says The prophet Mormon certified this idea and explained our Heavenly Father’s intent in bringing to light the Book of Mormon: “For behold, this [the Book of Mormon] is written for the intent that ye may believe that [the Bible]; and if ye believe that [the Bible] ye will believe this [the Book of Mormon]” (Morm. 7:9).

If this is true, why was it 1800 years after after Jesus rose from the dead do we have the "Prophet" JS? Why was in not 1000 or more years sooner. Then here is a claim that the Bible makes, yet the BoM does not make.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

That is 2 things the BoM does not teach or make claim to. I will cover more as time allows. Rick b

The Book of Mormon: A Guide for the Old Testament

2008-05-07T17:49:00.000-07:00

Sorry I am behind in posting, I am so busy it's not funny.
A mormon sent me this, So I posted it and will post my thoughts to it as I get the time. Rick b

The Book of Mormon:
A Guide for the Old Testament
By Elder Gary J. Coleman
Of the Seventy

Gary J. Coleman, “The Book of Mormon: A Guide for the Old Testament,” Ensign, Jan 2002, 45

The Old Testament can be better understood and believed by gleaning further light and truth from the pages of the Book of Mormon, our second witness for some of the events, themes, prophecies, and teachings of the Old Testament. The prophet Mormon certified this idea and explained our Heavenly Father’s intent in bringing to light the Book of Mormon: “For behold, this [the Book of Mormon] is written for the intent that ye may believe that [the Bible]; and if ye believe that [the Bible] ye will believe this [the Book of Mormon]” (Morm. 7:9).

Old Testament Events
The Book of Mormon offers clarifying facts about and insights into a number of stories of the Old Testament and often “likens” or applies principles from them. For example, without Lehi’s discourse in 2 Nephi 2 [2 Ne. 2], we would understand much less about the Fall. Mormon’s observation that Satan “put it into the hearts of the people to build a tower sufficiently high that they might get to heaven” (Hel. 6:28) sweeps away much confusion of the biblical account. Jacob’s teaching that Abraham’s offering of his son Isaac is “a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son” (Jacob 4:5) allows us to confidently ponder the Atonement as we carefully study the detail of this story. For readers of the conquest of Palestine by Joshua and the children of Israel who wonder how God could sanction this action, Nephi clearly teaches that the Canaanites were a grossly wicked people, ripe for destruction, who had rejected the word of God (see 1 Ne. 17:32–38). Nephi’s application of a principle from this story of conquest encourages us to consider: “Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of the Lord” (1 Ne. 17:35). Readers of the Old Testament would be wise to consult “the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion” as a resource to their study (History of the Church, 4:46). The chart on the following page summarizes many specific Old Testament events that are better understood after searching the Book of Mormon.

Old Testament Themes
An oft-repeated idea in the Old Testament is God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their posterity. When God confirmed this covenant with Jacob, He said, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed” (Gen. 32:28). Thereafter, Jacob’s descendants became known as the children or house of Israel (see Bible Dictionary, “Israel,” 708).
The Book of Mormon was written to show us “what great things the Lord has done for [our] fathers; and that [we] may know the covenants of the Lord” (Book of Mormon title page, paragraph 2). The “fathers” mentioned here refer to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Joseph, Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, King Benjamin, King Mosiah, Alma, and many others. They were of the house of Israel and were under the same covenants with God as members of the Church are today. The family of Jacob, whether in Old Testament or Book of Mormon lands, were the preachers of righteousness who have laid before us in the scriptures the doctrine of Christ, even faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Adam, Moses, Isaiah, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, and many others have written in great detail and clarity of the eternal gospel and its beginning from the foundation of the earth. They wrote and testified of the Creation, the Fall, Lucifer, the redemption of all mankind through the Holy Messiah, salvation by grace, and the resurrection of the dead.
Another major emphasis of the Old Testament is the scattering and gathering of the house of Israel. Here again the Book of Mormon offers invaluable perspectives. One of the sons of Jacob (Israel) was Joseph, who was sold into Egypt. Joseph became a leader in the court of Pharaoh (see Gen. 37–41). To Joseph were born two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen. 41:50–52). The descendants of these two sons are “the fruitful bough” of the house of Israel “whose branches run over the wall” (Gen. 49:22), meaning they were scattered across the earth. As the Book of Mormon account opens, we are introduced to Lehi, “a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt” (Alma 10:3).
The story of Lehi and his family in the Book of Mormon is a record of a scattered remnant of the house of Israel. Yet the Book of Mormon introduces all of scattered Israel to the Restoration and latter-day prophets who preach the same gospel of Christ taught by ancient prophets. When the resurrected Christ spoke of the doctrine of the gathering of a covenant people to the Saints in the land of Bountiful (see 3 Ne. 20:25–31), He reminded them of the ancient covenant He, as Jehovah, had made with Abraham some 2,000 years before (see Gen. 12:1–3; Gen. 17:19–21; Gen. 22:18), to gather scattered Israel. In plainness and simplicity, the Book of Mormon testifies that the intent of all scripture is to invite Israel home. This is done in all ages through the great process of missionary work.
A third significant subject presented in the Old Testament is the role of prophets. Prophets are called by God in all ages. Their duty is to teach the everlasting gospel, to cry repentance. They invite all to come to Christ and be saved in the kingdom of God. Whether from the watchtowers of the Old Testament (see Isa. 52:8; Jer. 6:17; Ezek. 3:17), those of the Book of Mormon (see Mosiah 2:8; Hel. 7:10–14), or today’s pulpits alive with latter-day testimony, prophets speak and the message of salvation is given. The Book of Mormon helps us understand how Old Testament prophets held the keys and authority of God and conducted their labors in preparing families for exaltation through the great plan of God (see JST, Gen. 14:25–40, Bible appendix; Alma 13:1–21). Righteous priesthood holders administer the gospel of Jesus Christ and establish the Church in every dispensation.

Old Testament Prophecies
Old Testament and Book of Mormon peoples wanted to know of future events. Book of Mormon prophet Jacob observed, “For I know that ye [his people] have searched much, many of you, to know of things to come” (2 Ne. 9:4). Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, and Malachi all noted their people’s fascination with soothsayers, astrologers, and divination (see Isa. 8:19; Jer. 27:9; Ezek. 12:24; Micah 5:12; Mal. 3:5). But their prophets wanted them to know about the Lord’s future work, particularly concerning the coming of Christ in the flesh, the last days, the Second Coming, and the Millennium. Both the Old Testament and Book of Mormon are filled with prophecies which overlap and help illuminate each other. Book of Mormon prophets frequently turned to Old Testament passages, even directly quoting from them, to teach of the future. The following chart summarizes where a student of Old Testament prophecy can turn in the Book of Mormon for further help.

Old Testament Teachings
There is no wide-ranging explanatory discussion of the plan of God in the Old Testament. Yet Book of Mormon prophets, who had much of the Old Testament on the plates of brass (see 1 Ne. 5:10–16), were well acquainted with the plan of God. How beautifully Jacob and Alma outline the central and saving role of the Savior in the plan! (see 2 Ne. 9:1–26; Alma 12:32–34). In fact, one of the roles of the Book of Mormon is to add to the Old Testament many precious insights into the great plan, particularly concerning Christ, who is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament (see 1 Ne. 17:30). The primary intent of ancient American prophets was to testify to future generations that “we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundreds of years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us” (Jacob 4:4). The prophet Nephi said, “My soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him” (2 Ne. 11:4). Nephi taught his people of Christ, primarily through the use of the types and symbols he found in the Old Testament. The following chart shows examples of teachings and symbols, some of which are given limited review in the Old Testament but are amplified in the Book of Mormon.

Conclusion
The scriptures have come from God through the inspired minds of those who spoke and wrote of eternal truths. Members of the Church today are children of the covenant, the people blessed of the Lord to have a fulness of the gospel and to have made sacred covenants with the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Ours is a life in the kingdom of God on earth, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yet it is eternal life in the kingdom of God in heaven that our Savior continually invites us to obtain by following His righteous example. Thanks be to God the Father for the sacred records which testify of the great plan of happiness. The work, sacrifice, endurance, faith, hope, and joy of all the holy prophets—those in the Old Testament and in the Book of Mormon—were centered in the blessed Atonement of the Son of God. He is the Mediator and grantor of the blessings of the covenant between the people of God and our Heavenly Father. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ is an essential study aid for more fully understanding the message of the Old Testament, our first and most enduring witness of Christ.

Old Testament Events and Related Book of Mormon References

Old Testament Event Old Testament Reference Related Book of Mormon Reference
The Creation of the earth and mankind Gen. 1–2; Moses 2–3 2 Ne. 2:11–15; Jacob 2:21; Mosiah 4:9; Morm. 9:17
The Fall of Adam and Eve Gen. 3; Moses 4 2 Ne. 2:14–25; Alma 12:20–24
Cain and secret combinations Gen. 4; Moses 5:18–32 Hel. 6:26–30; Ether 8:15–16
Noah and the Flood Gen. 7 Alma 10:22; Ether 6:7
The Tower of Babel Gen. 11 Hel. 6:28; Ether 1:33–43
Melchizedek and Abraham Gen. 14:18–20 Alma 13:14–19
Abraham circumcises his household Gen. 15; Lev. 12 Moro. 8:8
Moses and the parting of the Red Sea Ex. 14 1 Ne. 4:2–3; 1 Ne. 17:23–27; Mosiah 7:19
Moses brings forth water from a rock in the wilderness Ex. 17; Num. 20 1 Ne. 17:29; 2 Ne. 25:20
Moses receives the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai Ex. 19–20 Mosiah 12:33–36
Moses is transfigured Ex. 34:29–35 Mosiah 13:5
Moses and the brazen serpent Num. 21 1 Ne. 17:41–42; 2 Ne. 25:20; Alma 33:19–21; Hel. 8:14–15
What happened to Moses at the end of his ministry Deut. 34 Alma 45:19
The conquest of the promised land by Joshua and the children of Israel Josh. 1–10 1 Ne. 17:32–38
David marries many wives 1 Sam. 25:42–43; 2 Sam. 5:13; 2 Sam. 11:27 Jacob 2:23–31; Jacob 4:14–18
Solomon marries many wives 1 Kgs. 11:1–3 Jacob 2:23–31; Jacob 4:14–18
Jeremiah cast into prison Jer. 37 1 Ne. 7:14
Destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonians Jer. 52:12–15; 2 Kgs. 24–25 1 Ne. 1:4, 13; 1 Ne. 7:13–15; 2 Ne. 1:4; 2 Ne. 6:8; Omni 1:15–18; Hel. 8:20
Isaiah sees Jesus Christ Isa. 6 2 Ne. 11:2

Old Testament Teachings and Related Book of Mormon References

Old Testament Teaching Old Testament Reference Related Book of Mormon Reference
Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ Gen. 4:4; Gen. 7:1; Gen. 12:1; Gen. 28:13; Ex. 3:4–6; Ex. 14:30 1 Ne. 17:30; 2 Ne. 10:2–3; Moro. 10:34
Ancient patriarchs entered the rest of God Gen. 4–5, Gen. 11–12 Alma 13:1–20
The Ten Commandments Ex. 20 Mosiah 13:12–26
God gives power over the weather to some of His prophets 1 Kgs. 17:1 Hel. 10:4–11; Hel. 11:4–5
Moses and many other Old Testament prophets taught of Christ Deut. 18:15–19; five books of Moses; writings of Isaiah and Jeremiah 3 Ne. 20:23–24; Hel. 8:11–22; Mosiah 13:33–35
The purpose of the law of Moses was to lead people to Christ Ex. 20–Lev. 27 Jacob 4:4–6; 2 Ne. 25:23–30; Mosiah 3:14; Mosiah 13:27–35; Alma 25:15–16; Alma 34:10–14; 3 Ne. 9:17; 3 Ne. 12:17; 3 Ne. 15:2–9

Old Testament Prophecies and Related Book of Mormon References

Old Testament Prophecy Old Testament Reference Related Book of Mormon Reference
Through Abraham’s seed would come a blessing for all nations Gen. 12:3 1 Ne. 15:18; 3 Ne. 20:25–27
God would raise up two prophets: Moses and Joseph Smith JST, Gen. 50:24–38 2 Ne. 3:3–22
The Bible and the Book of Mormon would become one in the hand of the Lord JST, Gen. 50:24–38; Ezek. 37:15–17 1 Ne. 13:39–40; 2 Ne. 3:11–12; 2 Ne. 29:8–14
Jesus Christ would be rejected by the Jews Ps. 118:22–23 Jacob 4:14–18
Prophecies of the latter days, Isaiah’s day, Christ’s day, and the Millennium Isa. 2–24 2 Ne. 12–27:2 (a quote of Isaiah’s writings from the plates of brass)
The words of the Book of Mormon will help gather Israel Isa. 5:26 2 Ne. 29:2–3
The gathering of Israel in the last days Isa. 11:4–12 2 Ne. 25:17; 2 Ne. 29:1; 2 Ne. 30:3–18
God will teach His people “line upon line” Isa. 28:9–13 2 Ne. 28:29–31
The coming forth of the Book of Mormon Isa. 29 2 Ne. 26:15–17; 2 Ne. 27:2–35; 2 Ne. 28:9–16; 3 Ne. 21:9
A prophet would prepare the way for Christ Isa. 40:3 1 Ne. 10:7–8
Scattered Israel will be gathered by the power of Christ in the last days Isa. 48–49 1 Ne. 20–22 (a quote of Isaiah’s writings from the plates of brass)
The Gentiles will help gather Israel in the last days Isa. 49:22–26 2 Ne. 6
Christ would suffer for His people Isa. 50–52:2 2 Ne. 7–8
Israel will be redeemed in the last days through prophets and missionary work; Christ shall reign upon the earth Isa. 52 1 Ne. 22:10–12; Mosiah 12:21–24; Mosiah 15:13–19, 29–31; 3 Ne. 16:11–20; 3 Ne. 20:30–45; 3 Ne. 21:8, 26–29
Christ would suffer for the sins of the world Isa. 53 Mosiah 14:1–15:12
Israel will be gathered in mercy and tenderness in the last days Isa. 54 3 Ne. 22
Christ will make an everlasting covenant with all who will come to Him Isa. 55:1–3 2 Ne. 26:24–28; Moro. 10:31–32
God will fight Israel’s battles in the last days Micah 4:11–13; Micah 5:8–15 3 Ne. 16:7–15; 3 Ne. 20:16–21; 3 Ne. 21:12–21
The wicked will be destroyed at the Second Coming when Christ will judge the nations Mal. 3–4 3 Ne. 24:1–26:2 (a quote of Malachi’s writings)

Symbols of Christ’s Ministry and Related Book of Mormon References

Symbols of Christ’s Ministry Old Testament Reference Related Book of Mormon Reference
Sacrifices pointed to Christ Gen. 4 2 Ne. 2:7; 3 Ne. 9:19–20
Melchizedek Ps. 110:4 Alma 13:2, 14–16
Abraham and Isaac Gen. 22 Jacob 4:5
The Passover lamb Ex. 12 Alma 34:10–14
The blood of the covenant Ex. 24:8 Mosiah 3:18
Water from a rock Num. 20 2 Ne. 25:20
Brazen serpent Num. 21 2 Ne. 25:20
Ensign, Oct. 1990, 58–63; Robert L. Millet, “The Plates of Brass: A Witness of Christ,” Ensign, Jan. 1988, 26–29; Glenn L. Pearson, “The Book of Mormon as a Witness of the Old Testament,” Ensign, June 1986, 14–18.

flds

2008-04-29T16:35:00.000-07:00

here is some great info from the mormonism research ministry on the FLDS. flds

Journal Of Discourse 11.

2008-04-16T16:21:00.000-07:00

LDS try and say that they do not teach or believe in polygamy, if that is true then how do they handle what Brigham Young said?

DELEGATE HOOPER-BENEFICIAL EFFECTS OF POLYGAMY-

FINAL REDEMPTION OF CAIN

Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, in the Bowery,

in G.S.L. City, August 19th, 1866.

REPORTED BY G. D. WATT.

11:266

There is quite a number of subjects and little points that I wish to speak upon, and hope that I shall be able to set them forth in a manner which will answer my wishes.

In the first place, I will say with regard to our Delegate to Congress who has addressed you this afternoon, and this I will say for myself, that I am perfectly satisfied with his course while he has been absent on this mission as our Delegate to the seat of our government. I am satisfied that he has done all that we could expect of him, and I will say further, he has done more than we believed he could perform. Had we possessed the assurance which we now have of his ability, faithfulness and perseverance before he went to Washington, we might have anticipated all his labors and success. He told you the truth, when he said that his affliction, through the bereavement he has suffered, caused him to cleave to the Lord; and I can say of a truth, judging from the spirit which is in him, that the words Brother Stenhouse spoke concerning him this afternoon are true; he is a better man than when he left here for the City of Washington-he is a better man than ever he was before on the earth; he has more faith in God today than ever he had; he is surrounded with an influence that I never saw him possess before his travels and labors at Washington this last term.

His labours are known to me. They were known to me when he was in Washington-both his conduct and his success were known to individuals here. We are glad to say of him that we are proud of his labors. We can say this safely in his presence, for he has enough of the Spirit of the Lord in him not to feel flattered. This I believe will satisfy all the Latter-day Saints, and very likely a great many others. Enough on this.

Brother Hooper and Brother Stenhouse have avoided, in their speaking this afternoon, an error that I committed last Sunday by mentioning names; and I will now ask the pardon of this congregation for ever speaking a name when attached to such a vile character, as I mentioned last Sunday. We know by the power of the Spirit of God that it is true, that when men rise up against the Gospel of life and salvation, they will always commit themselves, and then they will commit themselves with one another to that degree that they cannot believe each other. This is the case with those more particularly who have arrayed themselves against us for a few years past. Their work they must perform. I do not wish to injure them. They must have their day. Their time and season are allotted to them, the same as to all men for good or for evil. They can do us no harm-they can do nothing against the truth. The Lord will make the wicked and the ungodly and their acts accomplish his design, for, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain." We need have no fears with regard to the outside world, if we will purify and cleanse the inside of the platter. If this people, the Latter-day Saints, who profess to know and understand the way of life and salvation, can sanctify themselves so that they are accepted of God our Father, and of Jesus Christ, his Son, our Elder Brother and Savior, then all is right everywhere. Rest assured that the omitting of that duty is all we need fear.

I wish to give my views with regard to that doctrine and practice which are so obnoxious to the outsiders-to those who do not believe. It is an old saying that a continual dropping will wear a stone, so a continual laboring will bring about the purposes of the Lord. They say that polygamy is obnoxious to the world. This is really not so; it is the name of it that they object to the most. In connection with this let use look at the Christian world, and I will refer to the ladies who compose a portion of this congregation. There are many ladies, probably, here, who have lived long in the outside world, previous to coming to Utah, and who are not entirely unacquainted with the usages of society there. You know that it is customary to admit a certain class of gentlemen to private parties and entertainments where they are greeted cordially and welcome. They are esteemed as gentlemen of grace, education and polished manners; they are adepts in all the little extras of most refined society. They are great lovers of the fair sex, and their gallantry, fine appearance, and gentlemanly bearing too readily win for them the deepest admiration of the fair ones who may chance to cross their path. Yet it is not unknown, in the circles they frequent, that they are vile and corrupt, with regard to chastity. Yes, it is known that those beautiful gentlemen are libertines, that they do not respect female virtue any more than they do their old clothes, which they have worn and and cast off. Yet, they are greeted with the most profound respect and deference, their great crimes against female chastity are winked at, and they are still permitted to frequent the best society to lead astray, and decoy from the paths of virtue, the unsuspecting and unwary female.

Take another view of this subject. Let any one of the poor unfortunates, whom those unprincipled scoundrels have, by their hellish arts, seduced from the paths of virtue and honor, make her appearance in a select party where the ladies are fanning the vanity of those wicked men with their unmeaning and insincere adulations, and what would be the consequence? Instead of making the poor creature welcome, she would be spurned from their presence; unceremoniously cast out upon the cold world to be crushed down still deeper into the dark depths of crime and degradation, with none to reach forth a saving hand, or shed a tear of sympathy over the dreadful fate of the dishonored and lost one.

This is one of the inconsistencies of the refined society of the age. The defiler of the innocent is the one who should be branded with infamy and cast out from respectable society, and shunned as a pest, or as a contagious disease is shunned. The doors of respectable families should be closed against him, and he should be frowned upon by all high-minded and virtuous persons. Wealth, influence and position should not screen him from their righteous indignation. His sin is one of the blackest in the calendar of crime, and he should be cast down from the high pinnacle of respectability and consideration, to find his place among the worst of felons.

Every virtuous woman desires a husband to whom she can look for guidance and protection through this world. God has placed this desire in woman's nature. It should be respected by the stronger sex. Any man who takes advantage of this, and humbles a daughter of Eve to rob her of her virtue, and cast her off dishonored and defiled, is her destroyer, and is responsible to God for the deed. If the refined Christian society of the nineteenth century will tolerate such a crime, God will not; but he will call the perpetrator to an account. He will be damned; in hell he will lift up his eyes, being in torment, until he has paid the uttermost farthing, and made a full atonement for his sins. It is this very class of men, though not all of them, who have set up such a howl against the doctrine of polygamy, which is so much despised and which was believed in and practiced by the ancients-by the very men who are held up to us as patterns of all the piety that was ever exhibited through man upon the face of the earth.

This matter was a little changed in the case of the Savior of the world, the Son of the living God. The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This is merely a human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father. This answer may suffice you-you need never inquire more upon that point. Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father, and he is the Savior of the world, and full of grace and truth. It is not polygamy that men fight against when they persecute this people; but, still, if we continue to be faithful to our God, he will defend us in doing what is right. If it is wrong for a man to have more than one wife at a time, the Lord will reveal it by and by, and he will put it away that it will not be known in the Church. I did not ask Him for the revelation upon this subject. When that revelation was first read to me by Joseph Smith, I plainly saw the great trials and the abuse of it that would be made by many of the Elders, and the trouble and the persecution that it would bring upon this whole people. But the Lord revealed it, and it was my business to accept it.

Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. Now, then, it is said that this must be done away before we are permitted to receive our place as a State in the Union. It may be, or it may not be. One of the twin relics-slavery-they say, is abolished. I do not, however, wish to speak about this; but if slavery and oppression and iron-handed cruelty are not more felt by the blacks to-day than before, I am glad of it. My heart is pained for that unfortunate race of men. One twin relic having been strangled, the other, they say, must next be destroyed. It is they and God for it, and you will all find that out. It is not Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Daniel H. Wells and the Elders of Israel they are fighting against; but it is the Lord Almighty. What is the Lord going to do? He is going to do just as he pleases, and the world cannot help themselves.

I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believed it with all my heart, and I know it is from God-I know that he revealed it from heaven; I know that it is true, and understand the bearings of it and why it is. "Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?" If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted. These things will be just as the Lord will. Let us live to take just what he sends to us, and when our enemies rise up against us, we will meet them as we can, and exercise faith and pray for wisdom and power more than they have, and contend continually for the right. Go along, my children, saith the Lord, do all you can, and remember that your blessings come through your faith. Be faithful and cut the corners of your enemies where you can-get the advantage of them by faith and good works, take care of yourselves, and they will destroy themselves. Be what you should be, live as you should, and all will be well.

Who knows but the time will come when the inquiry will be made in Washington, by the President, by the Congressmen: "Are things any worse in Utah than in Washington: than they are in New York? or in any State of the Union? are they more unvirtuous, are they more disloyal to the Government? But then there is polygamy." That has nothing in the least to do with our being loyal or disloyal, one way or the other. But is not the practice of polygamy a transgression of the law of the United States? How are we transgressing that law? In no other way than by obeying a revelation which God has given unto us touching a religious ordinance of his Church. And the anti-polygamy law has yet to be tested, as to its constitutionality, by the courts which have jurisdiction. By and by men will appear in the departments of the Government who will inquire into the validity of some laws and question their constitutionality. Marriage is a civil contract. You might as well make a law to say how many children a man shall have, as to make a law to say how many wives he shall have. It would be as sensible to make a law to say how many horses or oxen he shall possess, or how many cows his wife shall milk. If a woman wants to live with me as a wife, all right; but the law says you most not marry her, and own her as your wife openly. As the law stands, she can come home to me, not as my wife, you know; she can sweep my house, make my bed, help me to make the butter and cheese, and share in all my pleasure and wealth, but the ceremony of marriage must not be performed. This is what is practiced in the outside world from the President in his chair to the lowest dog-whipper on the street that has means to obtain. They have their mistresses, and thereby violate every principle of virtue, chastity and righteousness.

In the large cities of the east-New York, Philadelphia, Washington, Cincinnati, Albany, Boston, etc., clubs are formed, composed of young men of those cities who pass in society as bachelors. Instead of entering into the honorable state of marriage, they hire and support girls. If one of the young men in the club should get honorably married, he is at once rejected, and his name is erased from the roll. The members of those clubs have their girls here and there; but no binding contract exists between them, either for time or eternity-for this life or that which is to come. They are hired the same as you would hire a horse and chaise at a livery stable; you go out a few days for a ride, return again, put up your horse, pay down your money, and you are free from all further responsibility. The Lord of heaven and earth frowns upon this sort of traffic. The constitution and every just law of the United States are opposed to it. All honourable ladies and gentlemen in North and South America, and in all the world, should be ready to raise their voices against it, in terms of indignation and disgust.

The last time I was in the city of Lowell there were fourteen thousand more females than males in that one city. That is many years ago. They live and die in a single state, and are forgotten. Have they filled the measure of their creation, and accomplished the design of heaven in bringing them upon the earth? No; they have not. Two thousand good, God-fearing men should go there, and take to themselves seven wives a-piece. It is written in the Bible, "and in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, we will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach." The Government of the United States do not intend that that prophecy shall be fulfilled, and the Lord Almighty means that it shall. Do you not think that the Lord will conquer? I think he will, and we are helping him. It is the decree of the Almighty, that in the last days seven women shall take hold of one man, &c., to be counselled and advised by him, being willing to spin their own wool, make their own clothing and do every thing they can to earn their own living, if they can only bear his name to take away their reproach. What is this order for? It is for the resurrection; it is not for this world. I would not go across this bowery for polygamy, if it only pertained to this world. It is for the resurrection; and the Spirit of the Lord has come upon the people, and upon the ladies especially, to prepare the way for the fulfillment of his word. The female sex have been deceived so long, and been trodden under foot of man so long, that a spirit has come upon them, and they want a place, and a name, and a head; for the man is the head of the woman, to lead her into the celestial kingdom of our Father and God.

A great many people who have lived in this Territory for a time have testified to their friends at home that there is more peace, more real happiness and joy; more union and fellowship in the families of Utah, than can be found in their own neighborhoods and cities. They say that which is true. There is not a tenth part of the trouble in families in this city where there are many wives that there is where there is but one wife. I have more trouble and difficulties to settle with those who have but one companion than I have with those who have more than one, to counsel and advise them, and coax and persuade them to live their religion and do as they should do.

I have proved to my Father and God that I am willing to forsake wives and children, and labor all my life time to build up his kingdom and never enjoy the society of a companion while I live; that I did in my young days, and I feel the same today. By and by the word will be given to me and my brethren to arise from the dead in the first resurrection, and receive the keys thereof, and go and call forth the rest. That will be here in a little while. When a man comes upon the borders of three-score years and ten he begins to prepare and look to where he shall be buried; though he may live a little longer the sands of life will soon be run out. There are now many in this congregation who will soon see the allotted number of years for man to live. I shall see it in less than five years more. Whether I shall live over that time is no matter to me, if I can do the work designed of the Lord for me to do.

I will here notice what Brother Joseph F. Smith was talking of this morning. It was said to Joseph Smith, the prophet, "according to your faith and the teachings of your Elders, nobody will be saved but you, Mormons; now, Mr. Smith, will all be damned but the Mormons?" Jos. Smith replied, "yes, and the most of them, unless they repent and do better." To be damned is to be banished from, or be deprived of living in the presence of the Father and the Son. Who will live with him? Those whom I have already mentioned. They will come up and inherit the highest glory that is prepared for the faithful-those who live as father Abraham did, and improve upon every means of grace, and upon every privilege given to them of the Lord. What is going to become of the others? Brother Joseph F. Smith told us the truth this morning. None will become angels to the devil except those who have sinned against the Holy Ghost. There exists many intermediate states between the highest glory, where God the father dwells, and the lowest kingdom among these kingdoms which are not kingdoms of glory. "In my Father's house are many mansions," said Jesus. The mansions in his Father's house are many, and they are ready to receive the people of this world who have lived according to the best light they have; and they contain all who have lived upon the earth from the beginning to this time, and they are capacious enough to receive all who will live to the end of time. John Wesley, and other great ecclesiastical reformers, could not attain to the same glory, by their own acts, while in the flesh that they would have done had the fullness of the Holy Priesthood been upon the earth in their day, and they had possessed all the glory and power and keys of it, and lived faithful to its requirements all their days. They cannot be crowned as Gods, even the Sons of God. Will they be saved? They will. In a Kingdom? in a good kingdom? A kingdom full of glory, full of light and joy, more than ever entered into the heart of man to conceive. While they lived it never entered into their hearts to conceive of the glory they do or will enjoy. If they have committed wrongs, and repented of them, the blood of the Savior will cleanse them from all sin, except the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is a sin unto death. The Apostle John writes, "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that ye shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin unto death."

I have endeavored to give you a few items relating to the celestial kingdom of God and to the other kingdoms which the Lord has prepared for his children. The Lamanites or Indians are just as much the children of our Father and God as we are. So also are the Africans. But we are also the children of adoption through obedience to the Gospel of his Son. Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God. He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessings of life; if they chose death, they must abide the penalty. This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice, and God brings forth the results of the acts of his creatures to promote his kingdom and subserve his purposes in the salvation and exaltation of his children. If the Lord could have his own way, he would have all the human family to enter into his church and kingdom, receive the Holy Priesthood and come into the celestial kingdom of our Father and God, by the power of their own choice.

May the Lord bless you. Amen.

534 women, children leave polygamist ranch

2008-04-07T15:34:00.000-07:00

I will share my thoughts on this in the next post. Here is the news article for now. Rick b

Adult members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, stand around as children play with bottles of bubble water at their temporary housing, Fort Concho National Historic Landmark, in San Angelo, Texas, Monday, April 7, 2008.
2:45 p.m. ET, 4/7/08

534 women, children leave polygamist ranch
All 401 children deemed in danger; arrest made earlier at compound

Some of the 534 women and children removed from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints compound visit Monday outside their temporary housing at Fort Concho National Historic Landmark in San Angelo, Texas.

Police move in
April 6: Nate Carlisle of the Salt Lake Tribune talks about the raid on the polygamist compound in Texas where more than 200 women and children were removed.

April 7: Marleigh Meisner of Texas Child Protective Services reports that 401 children and 133 women have been taken into protective custody following a raid on a fundamental LDS compound in Texas.

SAN ANGELO, Texas - Officials on Monday announced that 534 women and children — more than twice as many as had been earlier reported — were removed from a polygamist compound and that all 401 children have been placed in state custody because a judge deemed them in imminent danger of physical abuse.

An unknown number of men remained there and are not free to leave, officials said.

State police earlier made an arrest as they searched the sprawling rural compound built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs in their investigation into a possible underage marriage.
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Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said the person arrested was not Dale Barlow, the man listed in warrants related to the marriage of an underage girl. The person was charged with interfering with officials, but Vinger said he had no other details.

The girl’s report to authorities last week led to a raid at the 1,700-acre West Texas compound run by the sect led by Jeffs, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The girl said she had a baby at 15 and authorities were investigating whether she had been abused. Officials were still not sure if the girl was among the 401 children in custody.

Authorities on Sunday moved some 220 women and children from the compound to a historic fort-turned-museum in San Angelo, about 40 miles north. Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said that location was chosen because investigators wanted all the children and women to stay in one place as caseworkers continue interviews.

Children reluctant to talk
Officials were struggling Monday to persuade anyone in the large extended families to give them any information about the goings-on inside the compound.

“When children live in a pretty secluded environment and they’re as sheltered as these children, it’s very difficult to get them to talk to you and to open up. If you can get them to a neutral place, they’re a lot more prone to answer you truthfully,” said Debra Brown, who is with a local child advocacy group that is representing the children in legal proceedings.

Brown said with a backlog of cases in the Texas foster care system, placing all the children will be difficult.

Meisner called the new numbers "overwhelming" and suggested even more women and children might be found inside the compound.

State troopers armed with a search warrant raided the ranch on Friday to look for evidence of a marriage between Barlow, 50, and the teen who called authorities a week ago. Under Texas law, girls younger than 16 cannot marry, even with parental approval.

Authorities were still not sure Monday whether the girl was among those taken from the compound.

Prosecutor Allison Palmer said other law enforcement agencies “know where (Barlow) is and have talked to him, but our investigators have not.”

Barlow’s probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona. Phone messages seeking comment from Loader and Barlow were not immediately returned Monday.

Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

The search warrant instructed officers to look for marriage records or other evidence linking the teen to the man and the baby. The warrant authorized the seizure of computer drives, CDs, DVDs or photos.
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The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, headed by Jeffs after his father’s death in 2002, broke away from the Mormon church after the latter disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

The compound sits down a narrow paved road and behind a hill that shields it almost entirely from view in Eldorado, a town of fewer than 2,000 surrounded by sheep ranches nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio. Only the 80-foot-high white temple can be seen on the horizon.

FLDS church members began building the compound several years ago as authorities in Arizona and Utah began increasingly scrutinizing the group.

Jeffs is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., where he awaits trial for four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.

The investigation prompted by the girl’s call last week was the first in Texas involving the sect.

Steve Olsen of Salt Lake City, Utah, watches as Arkansas State Sen. Randy Laverty, D-Newton, center, shakes hands with Marlin Jensen, historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Carrollton, Ark., on Friday, Mach 28, 2008. After a meeting of descendants and representatives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Carrollton, Ark., the church said Friday it will seek National Historic Landmark status for Mountain Meadows, the southern Utah site where 120 people were massacred on their way to California in 1857.
1:38 p.m. ET, 3/29/08

Bruce R. McConkie's "Challenge"

2008-03-31T08:23:00.000-07:00

This is the 3rd time I have posted this on my blog. I am posting this again because I am very active on this blog, mormon coffee.
I posted the link to this topic and it worked for a few days, then stopped, I dont know if someone stopped it or not, but one LDS member wanted to check out this topic, so I re-posted it for him. I was saying on the blog, that I posted this twice on the MC blog plus on a few other blogs/websites. in the 3 plus years I have used this I have never once gotten an honest answer.

My replys from Mormons tend to be, I can answer you, I just do not want to since I feel you really do not want an answer. Here was a reply from a Mormon on the MC blog, Chuck5000 said:

Rick, it’s funny you should mention the challenge. I am engaged in writing a book to do just that. Your Challenge has inspired me to write a series of books on the subject. The first book will be the 10 things it clarifies. The other books will be other topics. I will let you know when it is finished. I will even send you a free copy.

Now About 5 days after Chuck5000 said that, He posted on the MC blog he was calling it quits, he said he had enough and was done. So as of yet He never answered my question and telling me he will write a book is not answering my question. So as of yet no one seems able to answer it.

In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.

Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.

I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.

1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.

2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and

3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?

mormon terms 2

2008-03-11T15:26:00.001-07:00

J

Jack-Mormon. More commonly a term that describes a lukewarm Mormon who does not fully practice his faith. However, it has also been used to describe non-Mormons who showed kindness and/or sympathy to the Mormons.

Jaredites. A group of people who supposedly came to the Americas around 2247 B.C. The Book of Mormon details their exploits in the book of Ether.

Jehovah. The name given to the premortal Jesus, the son of Elohim. "It is to be remembered that the Personage most generally designated in the Old Testament as God or the Lord, is He who in the mortal state was known as Jesus Christ, and in the antemortal state as Jehovah" (Articles of Faith, pp. 465-466). In the Mormon temple endowment ceremony, Jehovah assists Michael, the premortal Adam, in the organization of the world.

Jehovah is a hybrid word taken from the tetragrammaton YHWH. Vowels were added to these consonants to form the word Yahweh, another name for God. The King James Version of the Bible often renders Jehovah as Lord; in many verses the words Jehovah and Elohim (Lord God) are combined when speaking of the one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Psalm 100:3; Jeremiah 10:10).

Jesus Christ. Known in the pre-existence as Jehovah. One of three gods in the Mormon godhead. The spirit brother of Lucifer and elder brother of the human race, Jesus was the literal firstborn (The Only Begotten) son to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. He became a God in the pre-existence prior to experiencing mortality. In Christianity, Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity. God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16) and the creator of all things, including Lucifer (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:1-2). Jesus stands in equal authority with the Father since He is the true God (Philippians 2:6).

Journal of Discourses. A twenty-six-volume set of books containing sermons from various Mormon leaders until 1886, including General Conference addresses. Most of the volumes were published under the direct supervision of an LDS General Authority. In recent years these sermons have often been categorized by many Latter-day Saints as mere opinions of the individual speakers; however, many of these sermons are quoted in LDS Church manuals and conference messages. Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe, for example, used the Journal extensively in his book, Discourses of Brigham Young.
K

Kingdom of God. Mormonism teaches a three-fold meaning for the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God on earth is the Mormon Church. The Kingdom of God in the millennium will be both an ecclesiastical and political kingdom ruled and governed by the LDS Church. Following the resurrection of mankind, the Kingdom of God is the celestial kingdom and does not include the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms (Mormon Doctrine pp. 415-417).

Kolob. Described as a star or planet nearest to the residence of God. It is near Kolob where God resides and where all humans live until they take human form here on earth. Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "He [Eternal Father] revealed to Abraham that his throne is near Kolob, the great governing star of our universe" (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 537).
L

Lamanites. The followers of Laman, who is mentioned in the Book of Mormon as the eldest and wicked son of Lehi. First Nephi 12:23 states that after the Lamanites "dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations." The Lamanites annihilated the light-skinned Nephites at the battle at the Hill Cumorah. The Book of Mormon teaches that the dark-skinned Lamanites are of the "House of Israel" and many Mormons believe Lamanites were the ancestors of the modern American Indians. However, DNA evidence yields no support for such a conclusion.

LDS. Short for Latter-day Saint(s).

Lehi. According to the Book of Mormon, Lehi was a righteous man who was told to flee Jerusalem before its destruction in 600 B.C. He led his family by boat to the American continent. Others mentioned in the Book of Mormon by this name include Lehi, the son of Zoram; Lehi, the Nephite commander; Lehi, the son of Helaman; and the city and land of Lehi.

Lorenzo Snow couplet. Lorenzo Snow, the fifth president and prophet of the mainstream sect of Mormonism, is famous both in and outside of Mormonism for his couplet: "As man is God once was, as God is man may be." This short couplet summarizes the traditional understanding of what Joseph Smith taught in the "Sermon in the Grove" and, most famously, in the "King Follett Discourse".

Lucifer. One of the literal sons of Elohim and Heavenly Mother. A spirit-brother of Jesus (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 34). Lucifer was present at the council of the gods, which was called to determine how mankind would be saved. Lucifer's plan was rejected, resulting in his rebelling against his father Elohim (D&C 29:36, Book of Abraham 3:27-28). In the Bible, Lucifer is a fallen angel whose rebellion against God caused him to be cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18). He was a created being brought into existence by Jesus Christ (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:1-2).
M

Man. All mankind was "in the beginning with God" (D&C 93:29). Joseph Smith taught "the mind or intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself.... There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 353). When editing this sermon, Church historian B. H. Roberts said the word co-equal should read co-eternal and blames the discrepancy on the stenographer's reporting. Brigham Young stated, "It is fully proved in all the revelations that God has ever given to mankind that they naturally love and admire righteousness, justice and truth more than they do evil" (Journal of Discourses 9:305).

In the Bible, man had his beginning on the sixth day of creation. His disobedience in the Garden of Eden caused man to take on a sinful nature. Romans 3:11-18 describes man as one who is in rebellion against God. "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.... Their throat is an open sepulchre.... Whose mouth is full of cursing.... Whose feet are swift to shed blood.... There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Manifesto. A declaration signed by fourth LDS President Wilford Woodruff in 1890, officially promising the abolition of the practice of polygamy. This was in response to allegations that Mormon leaders were still teaching and encouraging the practice of plural marriage though it was illegal. Woodruff claimed these charges were false and that the leaders were not "teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice." Long after this promise was made, future presidents Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant were arrested, tried, and convicted of unlawful co-habitation (polygamy). Early Mormon leaders taught the doctrine of polygamy could not be overturned as this was an essential step to godhood. Interestingly, Wilford Woodruff, who signed the Manifesto in 1890, made this statement in 1869: "If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians ..." (Journal of Discourses 13:166).

Melchizedek priesthood. A special authority given to Mormon men eighteen years and older designed to enable them to gain exaltation in the highest heaven. It is taught that this priesthood was restored sometime between May 15, 1829 and April 6, 1830 although there is no written documentation for such an event prior to late 1834. Peter, James, and John appeared to both Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania, and bestowed the Melchizedek (also spelled Melchisedec) Priesthood on them. It is named after Melchizedek, King of Salem (Genesis 14:18). Mormonism teaches this priesthood was handed down originally to Adam who received it from God (Priesthood and Church Government, p. 109). Although Genesis 14:18 speaks of a priest of the most high God named Melchizedek, nowhere does the Bible mention a Melchizedek Priesthood per se. Hebrews 5:6 states that Christ is a priest forever after "the order of Melchisedec," not a Melchizedek priest as Mormonism implies. It is clear in Hebrews 7:24 that the priesthood held by Christ is unchangeable and does not transfer to another since He lives forever.

Mission. A voluntary commitment on the part of a Mormon. Although a majority of the Mormon missionary force is composed of young males in their late teens (about 75%), females and retired people also devote their time and service to the Mormon missionary program. Length of service lasts eighteen months for females to two years for males.

Missionary lessons. A series of lessons taught by LDS missionaries to potential converts, the basis of which is found in the missionary manual, Preach My Gospel. All points contained in the lessons must be taught before a person is allowed to become a member of the Mormon Church.

Missionary Training Center. Also known as the MTC. It is here the Mormon missionary learns doctrine and procedure that will be used during his/her missionary service. Time spent at the MTC varies from 3-13 weeks. The LDS Church operates 17 such training centers. These are located in Provo (Utah), Preston (England), Buenos Aires (Argentina), Sao Paulo (Brazil), Mexico City (Mexico), Santiago (Chile), Bogotá (Columbia), Lima (Peru), Guatemala City (Guatemala), Hamilton (New Zealand), Manila (Philippines), Tokyo (Japan), Seoul(South Korea), Santo Domingo (Dominican Republic), Madrid (Spain), Accra (Ghana), and Johannesburg (South Africa).
Molly Mormon. A Mormon female who aspires to be everything the Mormon Church expects a woman to be.

Mormon. Claimed by Latter-day Saints to be an ancient Nephite prophet who abridged and compiled the records of his people known today as The Book of Mormon. Originally this was a derogatory term given to followers of Joseph Smith. Today it is a non-offensive nickname commonly used to describe either The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints based in Salt Lake City, Utah, or its members.

Moroni. Believed by Mormons to be the son of Mormon. Moroni supposedly buried the gold plates containing the record of the Nephite people and later revealed their location to Joseph Smith in 1823.
N

Nauvoo. Literally means "beautiful place." Originally known as Commerce, Illinois. This city became the headquarters of the Mormon Church until Joseph Smith's death in 1844.

Nauvoo Expositor. A newspaper published by enemies of Joseph Smith. Its only issue appeared on June 7, 1844 to reveal Joseph Smith's abuse of authority in both ecclesiastical and civil affairs (Smith was also mayor of Nauvoo), as well as expose his plural-wife system. Three days later, on June 10, the Nauvoo city council ordered the Expositor's printing press destroyed.

Nephites. The followers of Nephi, a righteous son of Lehi. The Nephites are said to have been exterminated by the Lamanites at the battle at the Hill Cumorah.

New Jerusalem. A city to be built in Jackson County, Missouri. The Book of Mormon prophesies the coming forth of the New Jerusalem that "should be built up upon this land" (Ether 13:5). Joseph Smith claimed New Jerusalem would begin with the building of a temple and that the city would become a gathering place for God's "covenant people" (D&C 42:35-36). Neither the temple prophesied by Smith (D&C 84:1-4) nor the city was ever built. Smith attributed this failure to God's enemies (D&C 124:51). Another name for New Jerusalem was Zion. In the Bible, the new Jerusalem is mentioned In Revelation 3:12 as a city of God reserved for those who have "overcome" earthly trials. Revelation 21:2 describes the New Jerusalem as a holy city prepared for the bride of Christ. This city will come into play only after the former heaven and earth are passed away.
O

Outer darkness. The dwelling place of the devil and his followers, including humans who once embraced Mormonism but later denied it.
P

Paradise. A part of the spirit world where deceased Mormons go to await the resurrection. As they wait, these spirits act as missionaries, taking the LDS gospel message to the deceased who are in spirit prison.

Patriarchal Blessing. A pronouncement given to worthy individual LDS Church members, typically once in a lifetime, declaring their lineage. The blessing usually also includes prophetic statements regarding the recipient's future along with cautions, admonitions, and promises conditioned upon a lifetime of obedience.

Pearl of Great Price. One of Mormonism's standard works. This volume contains the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, and writings by Joseph Smith. These writings include an extract from his Inspired Version of the Bible, a brief history of his life, and the Articles of Faith.

Polygamy. A doctrine practiced in the LDS Church from the 1830s until 1890 in which men were encouraged to have multiple wives in order to receive greater blessings in eternity. Polygamy is no longer a practice of Mormonism, but the revelation which teaches it is still found in Doctrine and Covenants, section 132. Joseph Smith had approximately 40 wives; Brigham Young married at least 55.

Patriarchal blessing. A blessing or conditional prophetic utterance given to a Mormon either by a natural patriarch such as a father or grandfather, or an ordained patriarch appointed by the LDS Church to give such blessings (Doctrines of Salvation 3:169-172). "We can learn more about our talents and calling when we receive our patriarchal blessings" (Harold B. Lee, Gospel Principles, p. 10).

Pearl of Great Price. One of Mormonism's standard works. This volume contains the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, and writings by Joseph Smith. These writings include an extract from his Inspired Version of the Bible, a brief history of his life, and the Articles of Faith.

Polygamy. Otherwise referred to as plural marriage. It was also known as celestial marriage in the early Mormon Church. Joseph Smith claimed God gave him this doctrine in 1843. Early Mormon leaders taught polygamy was essential if a man hoped to become a god. Brigham Young taught in 1866, "The only men who become gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (Journal of Discourses 11:269). Today the practice of polygamy is denounced by the LDS Church.

Pre-existence. Also referred to as the First Estate or Pre-Mortal State. Mormonism teaches all humans lived near a planet called Kolob as God's spirit children before coming to earth and taking on human form. Since God's children could only progress so far in the pre-existence, it was necessary that they go through a probationary state here on earth in order to prove their worthiness to return to God's presence and continue their eternal progression (Gospel Principles, p. 11).

President. The highest office in the Mormon Church. It is the president's duty to preside over the whole church. Also known as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, he is chosen from among the Council of the Twelve Apostles. Revelations concerning the LDS Church must come through the Presidency.
Q

Quad. All four of the Mormon standard works -- the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price -- bound together in one volume.

Quetzalcoatl. An ancient Central American Aztec god believed by many Mormons to be Jesus Christ who visited the Americas after His resurrection. The name means plumed serpent and is derived from a colorful bird (quetzal) and a snake (coatl). “Quetzalcoatl, under a variety of names as presented in the traditions of the Indians of North, Central, and South America, is none other than Jesus Christ, the resurrected Lord, as was maintained by President John Taylor” (Seventy Milton R. Hunter, Christ in Ancient America, p.54) Many modern Mormon scholars have abandoned the theory connecting Quetzalcoatl with Christ.
R

Recommend. A certificate which identifies LDS Church members who have been deemed worthy by their Bishop and Stake President. This certificate allows the bearer entrance into dedicated LDS temples for participation in temple ordinances.

Reformed Egyptian. Mormon 9:32 describes the characters written upon the gold plates (containing the Book of Mormon) to be in a language called Reformed Egyptian. It should be noted that there is no evidence to show this language ever existed.

Restoration. The act by which God returned true Christianity to the earth. Mormonism teaches Christianity ceased to exist soon after the original twelve apostles died and that God restored the true church through Joseph Smith in 1830.

RM. Short for Returned Missionary.
S

Sacrament meeting. A solemn church service held weekly, that allows Mormons to renew their covenants by partaking of the sacrament (bread and water).

Salvation. Salvation is broken down into two categories. Individual or personal salvation (more correctly termed "exaltation"), and general salvation. The road to individual salvation begins with a belief that Joseph Smith was a true prophet sent by God. Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that there is "No Salvation Without Accepting Joseph Smith" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:189). Exaltation requirements include living a life of good works and temple participation. Keeping the whole law is absolutely essential. "Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep ALL of the commandments of the Lord" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:41, emphasis his). General salvation, otherwise called salvation by grace, was obtained through the death of Christ and is nothing more than universal resurrection, which occurs to all people regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle.

In the Bible, salvation is only obtained by trusting Christ. A person must recognize himself as a sinner and trust in Christ alone to receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Salvation and exaltation are synonymous terms. Those who receive Christ as Savior will be resurrected unto eternal life while those who refuse will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29) and be eternally separated from God. Trusting in the fact that Christ paid the complete penalty for man's sins warrants salvation. Jesus said, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47).

Second anointing. A rare temple ordinance whereby a person has his or her "calling and election made sure." Only Mormons who have received the second anointing can know for sure in this life if they will obtain godhood upon death. Not much is known about the second anointing because of the secret nature of this ceremony.

Second estate. Mortality. Physical bodies were given to those who were faithful in the pre-existence, or first estate. Those who were unfaithful (the devil and his angels) were denied physical bodies and must forever remain as spirits.

Seed of Cain. Members of the black race (Moses 7:2). Until 1978, LDS leaders taught that "one drop of negro blood" banned a Mormon male from holding the Mormon priesthood. The dark skin was the mark given to those pre-mortal spirits who were "less valiant in pre-existence" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition) when Lucifer rebelled against God. These spirits came to earth through the lineage of Cain, the eldest son of Adam and Eve. Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith claimed, "Cain became the father of an inferior race" (Way to Perfection, p. 101).

Seer stone. Described as a chocolate-colored, egg-shaped rock Joseph Smith found while digging a well near Palmyra, New York (Comprehensive History of the Church 1:129). A number of witnesses claimed Smith used the stone when translating the Book of Mormon.

Seminary. A high-school level course that teaches the basics of the Mormon faith to young people. Evangelical Christians normally use this term to describe a school or college offering training for those entering the ministry.

Sin. Acts of transgression against divine law. It is taught that man is by nature a lover of truth and righteousness. Brigham Young stated, "It is, however, universally received by professors of religion as a Scriptural doctrine that man is naturally opposed to God. This is not so" (Journal of Discourses 9:305). Third Mormon President John Taylor said, "In fact, as the President [Young] stated here not long ago, it is not natural for men to be evil" (Journal of Discourses 10:50). According to Mormon teaching, there are times when transgression is not considered a sin, such as in the case of Adam in the Garden of Eden.

In the Bible, sin is synonymous with transgression (1 John 3:4). Sin permeates all of mankind; it is an innate part of man's nature. King Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:3, "The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live." Psalm 14:2-3 says, "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek after God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." A man transgresses revealed law because he is by nature a transgressor. Just as a dog acts like a dog, so too, a sinner will act like a sinner. Upon faith in the true Jesus, a person is transformed into a new creature in Christ and is given the power to overcome sin (Romans 6:14).

Sons of perdition. Those who rebelled with Lucifer in the pre-existence. The term can also apply to those in this life who had a perfect knowledge of Mormonism but chose to reject it and fight against it. “Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power--They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity” (D&C 76:31-33).

Spirit prison. A part of the spirit world where deceased non-Mormons go until they receive the LDS gospel and repent; they are then released from spirit prison into paradise to await the resurrection.

Sunstone Mormon. A slang expression describing a liberal Mormon. Sunstone is a magazine known for its more liberal (and sometimes more objective) view of Mormonism.
T

Telestial kingdom. The lowest kingdom of glory to which "liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers" are assigned after death. The residents of this kingdom will be visited by the Holy Ghost, but not by the Father or the Son.

Temple recommend. A barcoded certificate that allows a member of the Mormon Church access to a temple. This is given only after an interview with his or her bishop and only if the applicant is deemed worthy. A temple recommend expires after two years. When a renewal is sought, the applicant must repeat the worthiness interview.

Terrestrial kingdom. The middle kingdom of glory to which honorable non-Mormons are assigned after death. The residents of this kingdom will be visited by Jesus Christ but will be separated from God the Father throughout eternity.

Testimony. An often emotional recitation of certain perceived "truths." For example, a Latter-day Saint might say, "I know Book of Mormon is the Word of God. I know Joseph Smith was and is a true prophet. I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's true Church on the earth."

Times and Seasons. A monthly Mormon periodical printed during the time when the LDS Church was headquartered in Nauvoo, Illinois. Edited by Ebenezer Robinson and Don Carlos Smith (Joseph Smith's brother). Its first issue appeared in November 1839.

Triple Combination. The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price bound together in one volume.

Trinity. Three separate gods: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost make up the Mormon godhead. They are "one God" only in the sense that they are united in the attributes of perfection. "Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present. The oneness of the Gods is the same unity that should exist among the saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 319). Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie called the Christian view of the Trinity “the chief and greatest heresy of Christendom” (Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie , p.59).

In Christianity, the Trinity is one God, who is eternally existing in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Whereas Mormonism states they are three separate Gods, Christians maintain the triune godhead neither confounds the Persons nor divides the substance. In the words of the Athanasian Creed: "For there is one Person of the Father: another of the Son: and another of the Holy Ghost. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal."
W

Ward. A local LDS congregation, usually meeting in a chapel. Several wards form a stake.

Wentworth Letter. A letter written by Joseph Smith at the request of John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat. The 1842 letter briefly gave an account of Joseph Smith's background and his new movement. The letter concluded with a list of Smith's beliefs, which has since come to be known as the Articles of Faith.

Word of Wisdom. A Mormon health law found in Doctrine & Covenants, Section 89, which tells Mormons to abstain from hot drinks (interpreted as coffee and tea), tobacco, excessive amounts of meat, and alcoholic beverages. Obedience to this health law is one of the requirements to receive a temple recommend. Those who keep these sayings are promised that "the destroying angel shall pass by them" (89:18, 21).
Z

Zion. A name that has had a number of different meanings throughout Mormon history. Zion is a name given by the Lord to his saints. "And the Lord called his people Zion" (Moses 7:18). Zion was the name given to Jackson County, Missouri, in a number of Joseph Smith's revelations (D&C 58:49; 62:4). In 1831, Joseph Smith said Jackson County would come to be known as the New Jerusalem (D&C 45:66-67). In 1844, Smith said that the Land of Zion comprised all of North and South America (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 362). In the Bible, Zion was the highest and southwesternmost hill in Jerusalem. Zion is also used in the Bible to describe the heavenly New Jerusalem (Revelation 14:1).

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A - Z: Introduction to Terms and Issues Related to Mormonism

2008-03-11T15:21:00.000-07:00

A

Aaronic priesthood. Known as the lesser of two priesthoods held by Mormon males (Priesthood and Church Government, p. 106). It is taught that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were visited by John the Baptist on the bank of the Susquehanna River on May 15, 1829; he laid hands on them and ordained them to the Aaronic Priesthood. The Mormon Aaronic Priesthood holds the "keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins" (Doctrine and Covenants 13:1). According to the Bible, the Aaronic priesthood is reserved only for those who were direct descendants of Aaron, the brother of Moses. Numbers 3:6-12 makes it clear that only those in the line of Aaron were to hold the Levitical Priesthood.

Adam. Known in the pre-existence as Michael. Adam "sat in the council of the gods in the planning of the creation of this earth" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 16). According to Joseph Smith, Adam participated in the creation of the earth and occupied a position of authority next to Jesus Christ (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 158). Smith also taught Adam was the Ancient of Days, the father of all (D&C 27:11; 138:38). Second Mormon President Brigham Young taught that Adam was not created from the dust of this earth but rather from the dust of an earth (Journal of Discourses 3:319). He referred to the biblical account of the creation of Adam as found in Genesis 2:7 as one of many "baby stories" (Journal of Discourses 2:6). In the Bible, Adam is first human created by God and formed "of the dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7). It was through Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden that sin entered into the world (Romans 5:12). The consequence of that sin was death. "For the wages of sin is death ..." (Romans 6:23).

Adam-God. First taught openly in a conference message by second President Brigham Young on April 9, 1852, Young claimed that Adam was Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, and that Eve was "one of his wives." Young also said Adam "is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses 1:50). This teaching has been the source of much controversy and has since been denounced. In 1976, President Spencer Kimball referred to the Adam-God "theory" as false doctrine (Church News, October 9, 1976). Young claimed this to be a doctrine when he said, "How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them and which God revealed to me--namely that Adam is our father and God" (Deseret News, June 18, 1873, emphasis ours). Heber C. Kimball, first councilor to Brigham Young, concurred with Young's assessment when he said, "The first man sent his own son to redeem the world" (Journal of Discourses 4:1).

Adam-Ondi-Ahman. Supposedly taken from the "pure Adamic language" meaning "the place or land of God where Adam dwelt." Mormonism teaches Adam-Ondi-Ahman was located in Daviess County, Missouri (Mormon Doctrine, p. 20), showing that Adam lived on the North American continent.

Age of accountability. The age of a child when he has "sufficient mental, spiritual, and physical maturity to be held accountable before God for his acts" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 852). Normally this is the age of eight (D&C 68:27).

Agency. The ability to choose right from wrong, which goes back to man's pre-existence. "Agency makes our life on earth a period of testing to see whether we are worthy to become like our Heavenly Father.... Without the gift of agency, we would have been unable to show our Heavenly Father whether we would do all that he commanded us" (Gospel Principles, p. 19).

Ancient of Days. Adam. Joseph Smith stated, "Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 157).

Anti-Mormon. Mormon J. Nelson-Seawright writes that "the terminological sleight of hand involved in the label ‘anti-Mormon’ allows [Mormons] to ignore the differences between honest and honorable men and women who oppose us, on the one hand, and unprincipled villains, on the other." Mormon Joni Hilton advises fellow members: "First of all, anti-Mormon literature, Internet sites, conversations, ideas, etc. are like spiritual pornography. Once they are in the mind, they are very difficult to get rid of. As you try to reach out to your husband, I would advise you to avoid any material, even if you think it might help you understand him better. You don’t want those seeds of doubt planted in your own mind, because no one is immune to them."

Apostasy, Complete. True Christianity is said to have ceased after the death of Christ's apostles. This made it necessary for God to restore the true church through Joseph Smith in 1830. Without this belief, there is no reason for the Mormon Church to exist. The History of the Church declares, "Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (1:XL).

Apostate. Ex-members of the Mormon Church who believe doctrines contrary to the current teachings of the LDS Church or those whose lifestyle does not reflect that of a Latter-day Saint (Finding fault with the LDS leadership, drinking alcohol, smoking, etc.). According to D&C 41:1 apostates will receive the heaviest of God's cursings. Can also include those who align themselves with Apostate Christianity.

Apostle. A member of the Council of the Twelve, the second level in the Mormon hierarchy. The twelve apostles are also known as the Traveling Presiding High Council and officiate under the direction of the First Presidency in all parts of the world. In Christianity, apostle usually refers to one of a number of specific disciples of Christ, named in the New Testament, who were called and commissioned by Him with special authority to be the foundation of the Christian church (Ephesians 2:20). The inspired teachings of the Apostles are recognized as authoritative in the Church and are the Christian rule of faith and life.

Articles of Faith. A list of thirteen fundamental and characteristic doctrines of the Mormon Church. Originally known as the Wentworth Letter, it was intended to briefly outline the basic tenets of the Mormon faith. The Articles of Faith is also a book written by Mormon Apostle James Talmage.
B

Baptism for the dead. Also known as baptism by proxy or vicarious baptism, performed in Mormon temples. It is believed that the deceased for whom the ritual is performed will have an opportunity to receive the Mormon gospel in the spirit world though acceptance of such an act is not guaranteed.

Although Paul mentions a practice known as baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29, little is really known on the subject other than he appears to exclude himself from such a practice by using the word they. The Mormon interpretation is rejected as are all ideas of a post-mortem salvation. Hebrews 9:27 clearly shows "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." This makes an after-death restitution with God an impossibility. Ironically, this same idea is taught in the Book of Mormon in Alma 34:34, 35.

Bible. One of the four standard works considered to be scripture. Of these, only the Bible is considered to be mistranslated and cannot be fully trusted. Article Eight of the Articles of Faith reads, "We believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly." The King James Version is the official LDS Bible text.

Bishop. Non-paid leader of a Mormon ward. His duties are similar to a Christian pastor.

Bishopric. "Any office or position of major responsibility in the (LDS) Church, any office of overseership under the supervision of which important church business is administered." A ward bishopric consists of an individual ward's bishop and his two counselors, all of whom belong to the Melchizedek priesthood (Mormon Doctrine, p. 89).

Blood Atonement. A doctrine that stems from the belief that the blood of Christ does not cleanse all sins; therefore, one who sins a sin beyond the cleansing power of Christ must atone for his own sins by having his blood shed. While current Mormon leaders may deny the blunt description of this practice as taught by their predecessors, tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone--so far as in his power lies--for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.... Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that men may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:134, 135).

In Christianity, blood atonement is Christ's death on the cross as the Great Sacrifice that provides cleansing for all mankind who place their trust in Him. The Bible maintains that the blood of Christ is powerful enough to cleanse from all sin. 1 John 1:9 reads, "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Book of Abraham. Included in the Pearl of Great Price. Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Abraham from papyrus found on Egyptian mummies he purchased from Michael Chandler in 1835. Smith said the "rolls contained the writings of Abraham" (History of the Church 2:236). Later examination from qualified Egyptologists showed Smith was totally incorrect concerning his alleged translation. Despite this refutation, many Mormons insist the Book of Abraham is authentic and Joseph Smith a true prophet.

Book of Commandments. A collection of Joseph Smith's early revelations, printed in 1833. These were edited, added to other revelations, and renamed the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835.

Book of Mormon. One of Mormonism's standard works. It contains the story of a group of Jews led by a man named Lehi who left Israel and sailed to the American continent around 600 B.C. with, among others, his sons Nephi and Laman. The book records the wars and ultimate demise of their followers known as Nephites and Lamanites. The narrative also includes the story of a group of people known as the Jaredites whom God spared from having their language confused at the Tower of Babel. Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was "the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194).
Book of Moses. Found in the Pearl of Great Price, one of Mormonism's standard works. Mormon scholars claim the Book of Moses was given to Joseph Smith by direct revelation in June of 1830. Its purpose was to restore many "lost truths" that are not included in the Pentateuch. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie claimed the Book of Moses "is one of the most important documents the Lord has ever revealed" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 564).

Branch. Mormon congregations that are not large enough or stable enough to form wards. These are divided into two categories: independent branches, which comprise larger and more powerful branches; and dependent branches, usually smaller in size and "less endowed" with local leadership. Several branches comprise a district.

Brethren. Mormons in general. It is also used to denote the Mormon leadership. "When we speak of following the Brethren, we mean particularly the First Presidency and the Twelve." (Apostle Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p. 102).

BYU. Brigham Young University. A college and graduate school located in Provo, Utah, owned by the Mormon Church. Extension campuses are located in Hawaii, Idaho, and Israel.
C

Celestial kingdom. The highest kingdom of glory in the LDS concept of heaven, available only to Mormons who exhibited complete obedience to LDS laws and ordinances during their entire lifetimes. This is the only kingdom of glory where one may enjoy the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Within the Celestial kingdom there are three levels, the highest reserved for those who were married in the temple and subsequently obtain Godhood.

Celestial marriage. Marriages performed in Mormon temples, which are not only binding in this life but also in the next. Celestial marriage and plural marriage (polygamy) meant the same thing in Mormonism's earlier years.

Child of God. In LDS thought all humans are the literal children of God, born in the pre-existence as offspring of Heavenly Father and one of his heavenly wives. In the Bible, the children of God are those adopted by faith. They are sinners who have trusted in Christ for their salvation. Galatians 3:26 says, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." John 1:12-13 says, "To all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Church News. A weekly, tabloid-sized periodical reporting LDS Church news and events.

Church of the Firstborn. The highest of three levels in the celestial kingdom. Only Mormons who keep all the commandments of God will enter this heaven and become Gods (or exalted) in eternity (The Way to Perfection, p. 206). "Eternal life is life in the presence of the Father and the Son. Those who receive it become members of the "Church of the Firstborn" and are heirs as sons and daughters of God. They receive the fulness of blessings. They become like the Father and the Son and are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:9).
Community of Christ. Previously known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, on January 1, 2001 the church officially changed its name to the Community of Christ (COC). It is the second largest splinter group of the Latter-day Saint movement. Headquartered in Independence, Missouri, this group historically has been led by direct descendants of Joseph Smith, whereas the Utah Mormons take their leaders from the Quorum of the Twelve, or twelve Apostles. A comparison between COC and LDS teachings show the COC to be less controversial than their LDS counterparts.

Comprehensive History of the Church. A six-volume history of the Mormon Church compiled by Mormon Seventy/historian Brigham H. Roberts.

Council in heaven. A council of the gods held in the pre-existence to arrange for the creation and peopling of the earth. This council was called by Elohim, the "head of the Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 349). Also present were Jehovah, Michael, and Lucifer. This council also determined how mankind would be saved.

Creation. Joseph Smith taught that matter is eternal and God had no power to create out of nothing. God reorganized already present elements, which have no beginning or end and cannot be destroyed (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 350-352). “Since Mormons believe that the elements are eternal, it follows hat they deny the ex nihilo creation” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1:400).

In Christianity, since there are no actualities that are coeternal with God, it is understood that God created all things "ex-nihilo," or out of nothing. God made the world without any use of pre-existent materials. God is the primary cause of all things (Psalm 33:6; John 1:3; Romans 4:17; Hebrews 11:3).

Cumorah. Traditionally the hill in upstate New York located south of the town of Palmyra. Moroni buried the golden plates in this hill and appeared to Joseph Smith fourteen centuries later to reveal their whereabouts. Mormon scholars today are divided on the actual location of the Hill Cumorah. Many believe the hill was located in Central America.
D

Danites. A title attributed to Sampson Avard, a Mormon, who described the Danites as a band of armed men formed into companies of tens and fifties who were bound by secret oaths never to discuss their activities which they carried out against those unfriendly to the Mormon cause. Mormon historians and leaders have since tried to distance themselves from this objectionable organization, which was also known as the Destroying Angels. In October 1838, Joseph Smith claimed that this illegal group had nothing to do with a Church-ordained Council of Fifty, which was set up as a defense mechanism against mob attack (Documentary History of the Church 3:178-182). Joseph Smith later denied that the Danites ever existed (Documentary History of the Church 6:165).

Deacon. Chosen from among 12- to 14-year-old boys. His job is to "watch over the Church and to be a standing minister to the Church" (Priesthood and Church Government, pp. 164-165). In the Bible, deacons are men chosen as subordinate officers in the church. Their qualifications include not being greedy, being sound in the faith, and able to rule their children and houses well. They are also to be the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:8-12).

Deseret. According to Ether 2:3 in the Book of Mormon, Deseret means honey bee. It was also the name given to the territory settled by the Mormon pioneers in the late 1840s. The name was changed to "Utah" when the Deseret Territory became a state in 1896.

Doctrine and Covenants. One of Mormonism's standard works. Also known as the D&C. Printed in 1835, the D&C is primarily a collection of supposed revelations given to Joseph Smith by God. Parts of the D&C were printed in 1833 under the title Book of Commandments.

Doctrines of Salvation. A three-volume set of doctrinal writings authored by tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith. Compiled in 1954, the jacket of this set reads, "His [Smith] teachings are the Doctrines of Salvation as they have been made known by revelation. He is universally esteemed as the chief doctrinal authority of the Church."

Documentary History of the Church. Also known as the History of the Church or DHC. A seven-volume set expounding on the history of the Mormon Church.
E

Elder. The lowest ordained office of the Mormon Melchizedek Priesthood (Priesthood and Church Government, p. 111). By this office Mormons feel they have the authority to teach, expound, exhort, baptize, and watch over the church, etc. Also known as a standing home minister.

Elder Brother. Jesus Christ. Mormonism teaches that Jesus was the firstborn to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Since all humans are God's literal offspring, He is by birth our Elder Brother.

Elohim. God the Father. The literal father of Jesus Christ. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (The Articles of Faith, pp. 466-467). Elohim was once a mortal man who progressed to the level of God. In the words of Mormon Apostle James Talmage, Elohim is a "Being who has attained His exalted state" (Ibid., p. 430).

Endowment. "Certain special, spiritual blessings given worthy and faithful saints in the temples are called endowments, because in and through them the recipients are endowed with power from on high" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 226-227). In order to enter the celestial kingdom and become a God, it is necessary for a Mormon to participate in the endowment ceremony. These ordinances are administered for both the living and the dead. Those who participate must swear to never reveal what they have learned in the ceremony. The endowment ceremony includes a film depicting the Mormon view of the creation and fall of man, the great apostasy of Christianity, the restoration of the gospel "with all its ancient powers and privileges," as well as the absolute conditions of personal purity and strict compliance with Mormonism's requirements.

Ensign. A monthly magazine published by the LDS Church covering Mormon news, events, and doctrinal and policy issues.

Eternal increase. The ability to procreate throughout eternity. This is reserved for Mormon couples who have complied with all the requirements for exaltation. "Those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 301).

Eternal life. Being exalted to the level of God. "Only those who obey the fulness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life ... Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation; they are sons of God, joint heirs with Christ, members of the Church of the Firstborn; they overcome all things, have all power, and receive the fulness of the Father. They are gods" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 237).

Eternal life is described in the New Testament as living eternally with God in heaven. Also referred to as everlasting life. Eternal life is obtained when one places his faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). John the Baptist concurred when he said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). First John 5:11, 12 adds, "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Eternal progression. The progressive life-cycle of humans: beginning as unorganized eternal intelligences; being organized (created) by God into spirit-beings; becoming mortal; and ultimately attaining Godhood where the life-cycle repeats with the new God(s) organizing eternal intelligences into spirit-beings who become mortal and eventually become Gods, etc., throughout all eternity. Eternal progression had no beginning and has no end; all Gods that ever were or ever will be must achieve their exalted state in this way.

Exaltation. The attainment of Godhood. It is the continuation of the family unit throughout eternity in the Celestial kingdom. Those who are exalted will create worlds and populations, receive the worship of those people, and rule as Gods and Goddesses over their creations.

Excommunication. A process by which an LDS Church membership is terminated. " ... Unless the excommunicated person repents and gains his church status again, he cannot be saved in the celestial kingdom.... Apostasy, rebellion, cruelty to wives and children, immorality, and all crimes involving moral turpitude, are among those which warrant excommunication" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 258).
F

Fall of Adam. According to the Book of Mormon, "Adam fell that men might be" (2 Nephi 2:25). "The fall of Adam and Eve was no tragedy. It was a blessing in disguise, for without it none of us would have been born, since Adam and Eve, in their original state, were not able to have children, as the Book of Mormon explains" (Apostle Mark E. Petersen, Adam: Who Is He? p. 4). Adam's fall is considered to be a transgression, not sin. "The 'fall' of Adam and Eve was not a sin but an essential act upon which mortality depends" (Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions 5:15). In Christianity, the fall of Adam was the result of sin against God's command to not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Adam's disobedience caused death to enter the world. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

Fast offering. An offering designated to be given to the poor, contributed during a fast and testimony meeting. "These contributions come from members of the Church, who abstain from two meals per month and pay the equivalent amount of these meals in cash to the bishop. The bishop uses these funds to provide for the cash needs of welfare recipients and to pay rent, utilities, hospital and medical bills" (Elder Henry D. Taylor, May 16, 1962, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1962, p. 7).

First Presidency. Consists of the Prophet/President and his two counselors. "Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church" (Doctrine and Covenants 107:22).

First Vision. Occurred in 1820 (officially) when Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was 14 years old. Confused about religion, Smith retired to the woods to pray and ask God which church to join. God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him: "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith – History 1:19). It was this vision that ultimately led Joseph Smith to organize what is today known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The historic reality of the First Vision is extremely important to Latter-day Saints. Gordon B. Hinckley, fifteenth President of the Church, said, "Upon that unique and wonderful experience stands the validity of this Church. ... The truth of that unique, singular, and remarkable event is the pivotal substance of our faith" (Ensign, November 2002, p. 80). Though the official version of the First Vision is contained in the Pearl of Great Price, there are at least nine different versions of this vision, each of which differs in the more significant parts of the story.
G

Garments of the holy priesthood. Sacred underwear worn by faithful temple Mormons which, they are told in the temple, "will be a shield and protection to you against the power of the destroyer until you have finished your work here on earth." Sewn into the garments are markings that resemble the compass, square, and level of Freemasonry. Mormons are told these garments are symbolic of the covering God gave Adam and Eve after their fall.

General authorities. Men "called to serve in the highest levels of leadership" in the LDS Church (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 2:538). These offices include the First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, quorums of the Seventy, and Presiding Bishopric.

General Conference. An assembly of LDS membership held in Salt Lake City, Utah each April and October. These meetings are for official instruction, announcements and teaching given by General Authorities and other LDS leaders.

Gentile. Basically non-Mormons, but also understood to include non-Jews. “Like Israel of old, the Saints also referred to themselves as a ‘covenant people,’ and often concluded correspondence with phrases such as ‘yours in the everlasting covenant.’ In thinking of themselves as Israel, they began to refer to non-Mormons as ‘gentiles,’ not in derision but as a symbol of their own special status” (The Story of the Latter-day Saints, 2nd ed., p.149). In Christianity, gentile simply refers to non-Jews.

Golden contact. A person who knows little or nothing about Mormonism but is eager to learn and may possibly join the LDS Church.
Golden Plates. An historical record of American peoples written on plates of gold. In A.D. 421, Moroni, a Nephite warrior and son of Mormon, buried the plates in the Hill Cumorah. In 1823, as a resurrected being, Moroni revealed the whereabouts of the plates to Joseph Smith who was permitted to retrieve them in 1827. The Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from these plates. They were returned to Moroni and taken to heaven following the translation.
H

Heavenly Father. Also referred to as God the Father or Elohim, a created being who was originally a mortal man and became God at a certain point in time (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 104). God is the offspring of another god who was also once a man, ad infinitum (The Seer, p. 132). Heavenly Father is but one of many gods.

In Christianity, God the Father was God from all eternity to all eternity (Psalm 90:2; John 8:41). He is self-existent and independent of any external cause. He always was God and always will be God. He alone is God and knows no others. Isaiah 44:8 says, "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Heavenly Mother. The wife of "Heavenly Father." Early Mormon leaders openly taught that Heavenly Father was a practicing polygamist making Heavenly Mother merely one wife among many (The Seer, p. 172). Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie claimed the teaching of a Heavenly Mother is an "unspoken Truth" not mentioned in the standard works (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

Hell. Also called Spirit Prison. "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection...Hell will have an end...After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as the sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo (sic) with the devil and his angels" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 349-350).

In the Bible hell is a place of eternal punishment. Jesus used the perpetual fire of Jerusalem’s garbage dump in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) as a vivid illustration of what he called “hell fire” (Matthew 10:28; 18:9; 23:33; Mark 9:23).

High priest. An office within the Melchizedek Priesthood that operates under the direction of the presidency. In the Mormon Church there are many individual men who hold this office of authority.

In the Bible, only one man at a time held this office of high priest under the Old Covenant. Numbers 3:6-10 states only those of the lineage of Aaron could officiate in this capacity. Hebrews 4:14 states that Jesus Christ is now the great high priest and that this office does not transfer to another.

Holy Ghost. Third member of the godhead sometimes described as the Holy Spirit and sometimes described as distinct from the Holy Spirit. Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "The Holy Ghost, sometimes called the Comforter, is the third member of the Godhead, and is a personage, distinct from the Holy Spirit. As a personage, the Holy Ghost cannot any more than the Father and Son be everywhere present in person" (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp. 76-77). The LDS Bible Dictionary claims the Holy Ghost is another name for the Holy Spirit (p. 704). Heber C. Kimball, first counselor to Brigham Young, taught, "The Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to Jesus Christ, just as I stand by brother Brigham" (Journal of Discourses 5:179).

Holy Spirit. "The agent, means, or influence by which the will, power, and intelligence of God, and the Godhead ... may be transmitted through space" (John Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 76). Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt taught the Holy Spirit was a "divine substance or fluid," which filled Jesus Christ (Key to the Science of Theology, 1855 edition, p. 29). In Christianity, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity and is synonymous with Holy Ghost. The word "Spirit" comes from the Greek word pneuma, translated both spirit and ghost in the King James Version of the Bible.

Home teachers. Members of the LDS Church who are given the responsibility of visiting the homes of assigned members once a month. Their job is to encourage members to grow spiritually through prayer, study, and performance of their church duties (D&C 20:42-54).
I

Immortality. Living forever in the resurrected state. "Now there is a difference between immortality and eternal life. Immortality is the gift to live forever. It comes to every creature" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:9). Mormonism teaches that everything will become immortalized, including the earth (D&C 77:1; 88:16-26).

Inspired Version. Otherwise known as the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). According to Doctrine and Covenants 73, Smith was commanded by God to work on a new translation of the Bible. It is said this was accomplished by way of revelation. While Mormon leaders have argued that the translation was not finished, the History of the Church reports that Smith finished his translation of the Bible in 1833. In a personal letter dated July 2, 1833, Smith wrote, "We this day finished the translating of the Scriptures, for which we returned gratitude to our Heavenly Father" (DHC 1:368). The Inspired Version is really not a translation at all because Smith did not use ancient manuscripts in his rendition. He merely changed the King James Version of the Bible wherever he saw fit and even inserted a prophecy concerning his own birth in Genesis 50:33 (JST).

Institute of Religion. An LDS school offering college-level classes on various subjects of Mormonism, often found on or near major university campuses.

Intelligences. Mentioned in the standard works only in Abraham 3:21-22, this word can refer to either the pre-existent spirit offspring of God or individual eternal entities that existed before the pre-existence. At one time every person existed as an intelligence. Joseph Smith stated, "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29). Twelfth LDS President Spencer W. Kimball said, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5). Former BYU professor W. Cleon Skousen added that if God "should ever to do anything to violate the confidence or `sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support.... He would cease to be God. Our Heavenly Father can do only those things that the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing" (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).

Investigator. A person taking the Mormon missionary lessons, said to be investigating the LDS Church.

White horse prophecy.

2008-02-25T07:46:00.001-08:00

I would ask this, since Mitt Romney is no longer running to be president and seems he could not win even if he did run again, is this then another false prophecy?

White Horse Prophecy.

Since United States Senator Orrin Hatch, a faithful Mormon, announced his candidacy in 1999 for the office of President of the United States, there has been growing interest in how he views the U.S. Constitution and one of Joseph Smith's little known prophecies. In the Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 11, 1999, there was an article titled, "Did Hatch Allude To LDS Prophecy?" The article stated:

Sen. Orrin Hatch has denied his Republican presidential campaign is motivated by a longing to fulfill an obscure Mormon myth. But during an interview with a Mormon Church-owned radio station this week he borrowed the exact phrasing of the apocalyptic belief.

According to the so-called "White Horse Prophecy," the U.S. Constitution will be hanging by a thread and a church elder from Zion will ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save it.

Utah's senior senator . . . complained that Democrats' political correctness will be the ruin of the country.

"They tolerate everything that's bad, and they're intolerant of everything that's good. Religious freedom is going to go down the drain, too," Hatch said. "I've never seen it worse than this, where the Constitution literally is hanging by a thread."

. . . Wright [the radio interviewer], also a Mormon said Hatch clearly was "talking to his folks" in the church audience and his use of the phrase was the buzz of the station afterward.

"It just caught me by surprise. It was worded carefully," Wright said Wednesday. "I'm not sure he saw himself as the one who would fulfill the prophecy, but I thought it walked a fine line. It's such a well-recognized phrase."

. . .

In July, Hatch called The Tribune to deny talk among GOP political insiders that he may have felt divinely inspired to seek the presidency. (Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 11, 1999, pp. C1 & C4, )

This popular prophecy of Smith's is explained in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

LDS attachment to the Constitution has been further encouraged by an important oral tradition deriving from a statement attributed to Joseph Smith, according to which the Constitution would "hang by a thread" and be rescued, if at all, only with the help of the Saints. Church President John Taylor seemed to go further when he prophesied, "When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men" (JD 21:8). To defend the principles of the Constitution under circumstances where the "iniquity," or moral decay, of the people has torn it to shreds might well require wisdom at least equal to that of the men raised up to found it. In particular, it would require great insight into the relationship between freedom and virtue in a political embodiment of moral agency. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.1, 1992)

Due to Senator Hatch's statements a number of people have contacted us for background information on Joseph Smith's prophecy.

Interest in this prophecy has surfaced once again as it seems to have been a part of the motivation behind "Deep Throat" of Watergate fame. On June 2, 2005 the Salt Lake Tribune reported that W. Mark Felt, Associate Deputy Director of the FBI during the 1970's, admitted to being the informant:

In October 1956, W. Mark Felt, now confirmed as The Washington Post's source "Deep Throat," rolled into Salt Lake City to take charge of the FBI office.

Felt, who in the early 1970s helped guide reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein's investigation of President Nixon and the Watergate scandal, spent 15 months in the Beehive State supervising some 40 agents who worked throughout Utah and Nevada. . . .

Salt Lake City was just one of many assignments the agent — who joined the FBI on Jan. 26, 1942 — would accept as he ascended the ranks of the bureau. . . .

Felt's admission to being Deep Throat came as no surprise to Salt Lake attorney Pat Shea.

Shea, a former U.S. Senate staffer, recalled Felt's desire to get to the bottom of things during a congressional investigation of the U.S. intelligence community, including assassination plots against foreign leaders.

After an interview session with witnesses, Felt would suggest to investigators, "This is something you might want to ask when you guys go back in there," recounts Shea, assistant staff director for the Senate Intelligence Committee in 1975-76.

The information was usually excellent, leading investigators into areas of inquiry that might otherwise have been overlooked.

Shea, a longtime Democratic Party activist and Bureau of Land Management director during the Clinton administration, believes Felt was motivated by anger over not being named FBI director and by long-standing animosity between the FBI and CIA.

"But," added Shea, "he also was a kid from Idaho." Felt retained a lot of small-town idealism from the culture in which he had been raised, including the LDS notion that in the latter days the U.S. Constitution would be hanging by a thread.

"Mark Felt saw himself as that thread sometimes," says Shea.

Felt, now 91, is a 1931 graduate of Twin Falls High School and 1935 graduate of the University of Idaho. (‘Deep Throat' Lived in SLC, Supervising 40 FBI Agents, by Lisa Rosetta, Salt Lake Tribune, June 2, 2005)

ORIGIN OF PROPHECY

Some LDS people have questioned the reliability of the accounts of Joseph Smith's prophecy concerning the constitution because it was denounced by LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie and President Joseph F. Smith. However, recent findings have established that Smith did give such a message.

Writing in 1979, LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie dismissed the prophesy as a forgery:

From time to time, accounts of various supposed visions, revelations, and prophecies are spread forth by and among the Latter-day Saints, who should know better than to believe or spread such false information. One of these false and deceptive documents that has cropped up again and again for over a century is the so-called White Horse Prophecy. This supposed prophecy purports to be a long and detailed account by the Prophet Joseph Smith concerning the wars, turmoils, and difficulties which should exist in the last days.

It is a sad commentary on the spiritual insight of professing saints that they will generate intense interest in these supposed prophetic utterances and yet know little of and pay less attention to the volumes of true and sound prophetic writings which delineate authoritatively the course of latter-day world events. It is known by all informed gospel students that whenever revealed truth, new or old, is to be sent forth for the enlightenment of the saints and of the world, it will be announced officially and publicly by the First Presidency.

Speaking, first of the White Horse Prophecy specifically, and then of all such false revelations in general, President Joseph F. Smith said: 'The ridiculous story about the 'red horse,' and 'the black horse,' and 'the white horse,' and a lot of trash that has been circulated about, and printed, and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a matter that was gotten up, I understand, some ten years after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by two of our brethren, who put together some broken sentences from the Prophet that they may have heard him utter from time to time, and formulated this so-called revelation out of it, and it was never spoken by the Prophet in the manner in which they have put it forth. It is simply false; that is all there is to it.

Now, these stories of revelations that are being circulated around are of no consequence, except for rumor and silly talk by persons that have no authority. The fact of the matter is simply here and this. No man can enter into God's rest unless he will absorb the truth insofar that all error, all falsehood, all misunderstanding and misstatements, he will be able to sift thoroughly and dissolve, and know that it is error and not truth. When you know God's truth, when you enter into God's rest, you will not be hunting after revelations from Tom, Dick, and Harry all over the world. You will not be following the will of the wisps of the vagaries of men and their own ideas. When you know the truth, you will abide in the truth, and the truth will make you free, and it is only the truth that will free you from the errors of men, and from the falsehood and misrepresentations of the evil one, who lies in wait to deceive and to mislead the people of God from the paths of righteousness and truth. (Conf. Rep., Oct. 1918, p. 58.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.835)

However, an article in the BYU Studies indicates that Smith did give such a discourse and that it was copied down by a faithful Mormon:

Since, by 1840, there was not yet a procedure in the Church for systematically reporting all of Joseph Smith's speeches, many of his addresses were never recorded, and others were preserved only unofficially in the personal writings of lay members.3 In addition, the longhand reports recorded at the time were subject to inherent limitations because of the absence among Church members of sufficiently developed shorthand skills to permit verbatim reporting during Joseph Smith's lifetime. This accounts for the existence of some reports of Joseph Smith speeches that are not referred to in the Prophet's History. The Martha Jane Knowlton report of July 1840 is of this genre. ...

The July 1840 context suggests that Joseph Smith's comments about the U.S. Constitution were given not long after his return from Washington, D.C., where his appeal for redress for the wrongs heaped upon his people in Missouri had fallen upon deaf ears. The address also gives significant insight into the marvelous anticipations and hopes the Prophet had for Nauvoo in its beginning phase. But, as one looks at the city from a later perspective, it is evident that the prophecies about Nauvoo, like Jackson County before it, were contingent upon human conditions and failings. ... The discourse as reported by Martha Jane Knowlton is as follows:

"A few Item[s] from a discourse delivered by Joseph Smith July 19 - 1840....

"We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace untill the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves, what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c. Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 391-392)

Another reference to this prophecy is found in the book, Words of Joseph Smith:

The History of the Church account is an amalgamation of the reports in the Joseph Smith Diary and the Nauvoo Neighbor. The report by Levi Richards is here published for the first time. A reminiscent account of this discourse by James Burgess contains the essential details found in the other three accounts published here, and adds that the "Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread."

In the month of May 1843. Several miles east of Nauvoo. The Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review. At the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people and upon our future prospects contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the constitution and government of the United States stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter day Saints will step forth and save it.

General Scott and part of his staff on the American Army was present on the occasion.

I James Burgess was present and testify to the above (James Burgess Notebook, Church Archives). (Ehat & Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, 6 May 1843 Note, p. 279)

In the book, Discourses of Brigham Young, an edited collection of President Young's sermons from the Journal of Discourses, we read:

How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. 12:204.

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. 2:182.

The present Constitution, with a few alterations of a trifling nature, is just as good as we want; and if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity. 8:324.

I expect to see the day when the Elders of Israel will protect and sustain civil and religious liberty and every Constitutional right bequeathed to us by our fathers, and spread these rights abroad in connection with the Gospel for the salvation of all nations. I shall see this whether I live or die. 11:262.

. . .

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At this critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so. 7:15. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 360-361 and p. 469)

[Note: the references at the ends of the paragraphs are the volume and page number of the quote as it appeared in the Journal of Discourses.]

Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the LDS Church, wrote in Gospel Doctrine, p. 403:

Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country, and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints, above all other people in the world, would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty. We cannot brook the thought of it being torn into shreds, or destroyed, or trampled under foot and ignored by men. We cannot tolerate the sentiment, at one time expressed, by a man high in authority in the nation. He said: "The constitution be damned; the popular sentiment of the people is the constitution!" That is the sentiment of anarchism, and has spread to a certain extent, and is spreading over "the land of liberty and the home of the brave." We do not tolerate it. Latter-day Saints cannot tolerate such a spirit as this. It is anarchy. It means destruction. It is the spirit of mobocracy, and the Lord knows we have suffered enough from mobocracy, and we do not want any more of it. Our people from Mexico are suffering from the effects of that same spirit. We do not want any more of it, and we cannot afford to yield to that spirit or contribute to it in the least degree. We should stand with a front like flint against every spirit or species of contempt or disrespect for the constitution of our country and the constitutional laws of our land.—Oct. C. R., 1912, pp. 8-11.

In the book Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 618-619 we read:

The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time "this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction" (Journal of Discourses, 7:15). It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.

If the Gentiles on this land reject the word of God and conspire to overthrow liberty and the Constitution, their doom is fixed, and they "shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant" (1 Nephi 14:6; 3 Nephi 21:11, 14, 21; D&C 84:114-15, 117). (God, Family, Country, p. 345.)

As we spread abroad in this land, bearers of this priesthood, men and women with high ideals and standards, our influence will spread as we take positions of leadership in the community, in the state, in the nation, in the world. We will be able to sit in counsel with others and we will be able to influence others in paths of righteousness. We will help to save this nation, because this nation can only be preserved on the basis of righteous living. ("The Greatest Leadership," BYU Student Leadership Conference, Sun Valley, Idaho, September 1959.)

LDS Apostle Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 60-61, wrote:

Saviors of the Nation.—To escape the judgments hanging over the wicked, and find a place where they might worship God unmolested, the Latter-day Saints fled to the Rocky Mountains. Here, and here only, during the temporary isolation sought and found by them in the chambers of "the everlasting hills," could they hope to be let alone long enough to become strong enough to accomplish their greater destiny. For in that enforced exodus and the rounding of this mountain-girt empire there was more than the surface facts reveal. If tradition can be relied upon, Joseph Smith prophesied that the Elders of Israel would save this Nation in the hour of its extremest peril. At a time when anarchy would threaten the life of the Government, and the Constitution be hanging as by a thread, the maligned and misunderstood "Mormons"—always patriotic, and necessarily so from the very genius of their religion—would stand firm upon Freedom's rocky ramparts, and as champions of law and order, liberty and justice, call to their aid in the same grand cause kindred [p.61] spirits from every part of the nation and from every corner of the world.

All this preparatory to a mighty movement that would sweep every form of evil from off the face of the land, and build the Zion of God upon the spot consecrated for its erection. This traditional utterance of their martyred Seer is deeply imbedded in the heart and hope of the "Mormon" people.

The following chronological selection of LDS quotes relating to this prophecy demonstrate its importance in the LDS mind.
1854

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, Brigham Young, July 4, 1854

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so.
1855

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 182, Brigham Young, February 18, 1855

Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.

We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it.
1912

Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11

Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty.
1922

Charles W. Nibley, Conference Report, October 1922, p. 40

My brethren and sisters, I hope that we will go home from this conference determined as a great body of people, to stand for law, order, righteousness, justice and peace on earth and good will among all men. I believe as the Prophet Joseph has written, that the day would come when there would be so much of disorder, of secret combinations taking the law into their own hands, tramping upon Constitutional rights and the liberties of the people, that the Constitution would hang as by a thread. Yes, but it will still hang, and there will be enough of good people, many who may not belong to our Church at all, people who have respect for law and for order, and for Constitutional rights, who will rally around with us and save the Constitution. I have never read that that thread would be cut. It will hang; the Constitution will abide and this civilization, that the Lord has caused to be built up, will stand fortified through the power of God, by putting from our hearts all that is evil, or that is wrong in the sight of God, by our living as we should live, acceptable to him.
1928

Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, October 1928, p. 108

The Prophet Joseph told us that he saw the day when even the Constitution of the United States would be torn and hang as by a thread. But, thank the Lord, the thread did not break. He saw the day when this people would be a balance of power to come to its defense. The Book of Mormon prophecies concerning the future of America have been referred to in our hearing during this conference, wherein it is stated that this nation, though it becomes a mighty nation, still it can stand in security here only as it serves the God of this land. That conception was in the hearts of the men who founded America.
1933

Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, April 1933, p. 127

I believe that it is the destiny of the Latter-day Saints to support the Constitution of the United States. The Prophet Joseph Smith is alleged to have said—and I believe he did say it—that the day would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread. But he saw that the thread did not break, thank the Lord, and that the Latter-day Saints would become a balance of power, with others, to preserve that Constitution. If there is—and there is one part of the Constitution hanging as by a thread today—where do the Latter-day Saints belong? Their place is to rally to the support of that Constitution, and maintain it and defend it and support it by their lives and by their vote. Let us not disappoint God nor his prophet. Our place is fixed.
1942

Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, April 1942, p. 87

But beyond all that, the Latter-day Saints have a responsibility, that may be better understood when we recall the prophecy of Joseph Smith who declared that "the time would come when ( the destiny and ) the Constitution of these United States would hang as it were by a thread, and that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save it from threatened destruction." (J. of D., Vol. 7:15)

I want to ask you to consider the meaning of that prophecy, in the light of the declaration of the prophets of the Book of Mormon times, who declared that this land was a choice land above all other lands, and would be free from bondage and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of this land, even our Savior, Jesus Christ. (Ether 2:12)
1942

J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58

You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.
1946

Mark E. Petersen, Conference Report, April 1946, p. 171

How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. . . . if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity. (Ibid., pp. 360,361.)
1948

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85

It is no wonder that the Prophet Joseph said—even though he knew he would suffer martyrdom in this land—"The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner."

Yet, according to his contemporaries, he foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
1949

Clifford E. Young, Conference Report, April 1949, p. 75-76

I would like to add this in conclusion. It is said that President Brigham Young, many years ago, made this statement:

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for Mormon elders to save it from utter destruction: and they will step forth and do it. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 2:182, Feb. 18, 1855.)

This is recorded in the Journal of Discourses and I presume it is accurate, but however it may be, is it not a possibility, that this Church, in its great leadership and in the power that will come to it in advocating the things that are divine and are right and true as for example the great welfare program, is not possible that when we as a nation shall have exhausted our resources—and we can well do that if we do not turn about—when we have we have reached that point is it not possible that to us will those who are not of us look for guidance and we will be held up as a people who are pointing an economic way that will mean for the economic and spiritual salvation and blessing of our people.
1950

Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1950, p. 159

I must not take more time but to add this: The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger. Said Orson Hyde:

I believe he said something like this — that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: "If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church." I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. (Journal of Discourses, 6:152.)

Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don't save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.
1952

Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1952, p. 18

It was Joseph Smith who has been quoted as having said that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction.

Why the elders of this Church? Would it be sacrilegious to paraphrase the words of the Apostle Peter, and say that the Constitution of the United States could be saved by the elders of this Church because this Church and this Church alone has the words of eternal life? We alone know by revelation as to how the Constitution came into being, and we, alone, know by revelation the destiny of this nation. The preservation of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" can be guaranteed upon no other basis than upon a sincere faith and testimony of the divinity of these teachings.
1956

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, p. 326

CONSTITUTION TO HANG BY A THREAD. The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger.

Said Orson Hyde: "I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: 'If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the elders of this Church.' I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it."
1961

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, p. 70

Eleventh: In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time "this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." (Journal History, Brigham Young's Speech, July 4, 1854.)

It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.
1961

Senator Wallace F. Bennett, BYU Speeches, February 15, 1961, p. 13:

We have much in our national system that militates against the rise of a dictator. The Bill of Rights with its philosophy of individual rights against oppression is still a curb on a power-hungry President. But if I were to guess as to how the Constitution may "hang by a thread" it would be because of the immense powers given to the President and his opportunity for their abuse.

Let us delve once again into the great principles of the Constitution and resolve that we will do all in our power to preserve these principles for our posterity. This is our duty as citizens of the United States, and pre-eminently our duty as Latter-day Saints, because without the Constitution this glorious restoration would not have taken place in this land and might not have taken place at this point in history.
1963

Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1963, p. 113:

The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang as it were by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the last thirty years have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis. Will there be some of us who won't care about saving the Constitution, others who will be blinded by the craftiness of men, and some who will knowingly be working to destroy it? He that has ears to hear and eyes to see can discern by the Spirit and through the words of God's mouthpiece that our liberties are being taken.
1963

Judge Joseph E. Nelson, BYU Speeches, April 24, 1963, p. 3:

Our government is an organization which was to, and since has, enacted, judged and enforced law through and by legislative, judicial and executive departments. It is encumbent on the American people to steadfastly maintain the historic balance of power by the three branches of government if our political system is to be preserved. If this is not done then the thread by which it has been predicted the Constitution will hang will be clipped and our form of government will disappear. We, the American people, must not become so internationally minded as to sell our birthright for a spurious promise of world peace. The most nationally-minded people are our enemies. We must remain faithful to our pledge, regardless of charges of chauvinism, to preserve America "with our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."
1964

Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, February 18, 1964, p. 9:

I am concerned that in our worship of materialism in our country we now have an indebtedness of over $5,000 for every man, woman, and child in this country. (This includes obligations for goods already delivered and services already rendered to the government, although payable in the future.) I am concerned that we have in effect abandoned the Monroe Doctrine as our safeguard for ultimate protection of this hemisphere, and that as a result we are threatened with Communism not only in Cuba but in South America and now in Africa as well. If the Constitution is to hang by a thread in this country, I want to be one to help to preserve it.
1966

Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 7:

In my commencement address I gave the language and sources of the prophetic utterance made by the Prophet Joseph that the Constitution of the United States would hang by a single thread, but be saved by the elders of Israel. I hope you will read those sources so you will be well-informed as to this prophecy and be prepared to do your part in its fulfillment.

Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 9:

Now what has happened in our country during the time we have been plunging toward socialism? Are we actually at that point where the Constitution may be hanging by a single thread and we need to step in to save it?

this info was from the Tanners website. light house

Beliefes about Joseph Smith.

2008-02-18T08:29:00.000-08:00

Well, now, examine the character of the Savior, and examine the character of those who have written the Old and New Testaments; and then compare them with the character of Joseph Smith, the founder of this work... and you will find that his character stands as fair as that of any man's mentioned in the Bible. We can find no person who presents a better character to the world when the facts are known than Joseph Smith, Jun., the prophet and his brother Hyrum Smith, who was murdered with him. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 14 p. 203)

No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. (vol. 7, p. 289)

The History of the Church contains some statements which seem to show that Joseph Smith felt he was almost equal with God:

God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it. (vol. 6, pp.319-320)

If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of the mountain and crow like a rooster. I shall always beat them.... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. (vol. 6, pp. 408-9)

These things were said About Joseph Smith, all I can say is, Wow, they sound like Joseph Smith is a god. Rick b

Excommunicated Part 7 of 7

2008-02-11T08:55:00.001-08:00

Beloved Church President, Gordon B. Hinckley, Dies at 97

2008-01-28T09:54:00.002-08:00

Below is the article about the Mormon "False prophets death" Well he know believes in the True Christ, yet his believe will do nothing for him since He died believing in a false Prophet. He will only be tormented for all of eternity by the fact he taught a false Gospel and lead possibly millions into hell for all of eternity. How very sad.

link to article

SALT LAKE CITY 27 January 2008 President Gordon B. Hinckley, who led The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints through twelve years of global expansion, has died at the age of 97.

President Hinckley was the 15th president in the 177-year history of the Church and had served as its president since 12 March 1995.

The Church president died at his apartment in downtown Salt Lake City at 7:00 p.m. Sunday night from causes incident to age. Members of his family were at his bedside. A successor is not expected to be formally chosen by the Church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles until after President Hinckley’s funeral within the next few days.
Continued

* President Gordon B. Hinckley
* President Gordon B. Hinckley emphasizes the value of the Book of Mormon to all Christians.
* The First Presidency: (left to right) Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B. Hinckley, Henry B. Eyring
* President Gordon B. Hinckley and journalist Mike Wallace of CBS' 60 Minutes tour Temple Square in Salt Lake City in 1995 after an interview that was later aired on 60 Minutes.
* President Gordon B. Hinckley greets Church members in Tarawa, Kiribati, during an 11-day, 22,670-mile tour of the Pacific Rim in January 2000.
* Church members greet President Gordon B. Hinckley and Sister Marjorie Hinckley as they enter National Stadium in Suva, Fiji, October 1997.
* President Gordon B. Hinckley answers questions on the Larry King Live show in September 1998.
* Podium in the Conference Center - made from President Hinckley's black walnut tree.
* President Hinckley hosts his 90th birthday celebration in the Conference Center, 23 June 2000.
* President and Sister Hinckley participate in the Days of '47 Parade, 24 July 1999.
* President Hinckley hosts President Ronald Reagan at the Church cannery in Ogden, Utah, September 1982.
* President Hinckley ignites the Olympic torch held by Elder Neal A. Maxwell, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
* President Gordon B. Hinckley and family members at the grave site services for Marjorie Pay Hinckley, wife of President Gordon B. Hinckley.
* Gordon B. Hinckley

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President Gordon B. Hinckley

* President Gordon B. Hinckley
* GBH Testimony
* GBH Bio

President Hinckley was known, even at the age of 97, as a tireless leader who always put in a full day at the office and traveled extensively around the world to mix with Church members, now numbering 13 million in 171 nations.

His quick wit and humor, combined with an eloquent style at the pulpit, made him one of the most loved of modern Church leaders. A profoundly spiritual man, he had a great fondness for history and often peppered his sermons with stories from the Church’s pioneer past.

He was a popular interview subject with journalists, appearing on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace and on CNN’s Larry King Live, as well as being quoted and featured in hundreds of newspapers and magazines over the years. During the Salt Lake Olympics of 2002, his request that the Church refrain from proselytizing visitors was credited by media with generating much of the goodwill that flowed to the Church from the international event.

In recent years, a number of major developments in the Church reflected President Hinckley’s personal drive and direction. In calling for 100 temples to be in operation before the end of the year 2000, the Church president committed the Church to a massive temple-building program.

In 1999 — 169 years after the Church was organized by its founder, Joseph Smith — the Church had 56 operating temples. Three years later that number had doubled, largely because of a smaller, highly practical temple architectural plan that delivered these sacred buildings to Church members in far-flung parts of the world. Many more Church members can now experience the sacred ceremonies that occur only in temples, including marriages for eternity and the sealing of families in eternal units.

President Hinckley was the most traveled president in the Church’s history. His duties took him around the world many times to meet with Latter-day Saints in more than 60 countries. He was the first Church president to travel to Spain, where in 1996 he broke ground for a temple in Madrid; and to the African nations of Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Zimbabwe and Cape Verde, where he met with thousands of Latter-day Saints in 1998. In 2005, he traveled nearly 25,000 miles on a seven-nation, nine-day tour to Russia, South Korea, China, Taiwan, India, Kenya, and Nigeria.

At a general conference of Church members in April 2001, President Hinckley initiated the Perpetual Education Fund — an ambitious program to help young members of the Church (mainly returning missionaries from developing countries) receive higher education and work-related training that they would otherwise likely never receive.

Closer to his Salt Lake City home, President Hinckley announced the construction of a new Conference Center in 1996 and dedicated it four years later. Seating 21,000 people, it is believed to be the largest religious and theater auditorium in the world and has become the hub for the Church’s general conference messages to the world, broadcast in 91 languages.

Even before his term as president, President Hinckley’s extensive Church service included 14 years as a counselor in the First Presidency, the highest presiding body in the government of the Church, and 20 years before that as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

President Hinckley was born 23 June 1910 in Salt Lake City, a son of Bryant Stringham and Ada Bitner Hinckley. One of his forebears, Stephen Hopkins, came to America on the Mayflower. Another, Thomas Hinckley, served as governor of the Plymouth Colony from 1680 to 1692.

President Hinckley’s first job was as a newspaper carrier for the Deseret News, a Salt Lake City daily. After attending public schools in Salt Lake City, he earned a bachelor of arts degree at the University of Utah and then served two years as a full-time missionary for the Church in Great Britain. He served with distinction and ultimately was appointed as an assistant to the Church apostle who presided over all the European missions.

Upon successfully completing his missionary service in the mid-1930s, he was asked by Heber J. Grant, then president of the Church, to organize what has become the Church's Public Affairs Department.

President Hinckley began serving as a member of the Sunday School general board in 1937, two years after returning home from missionary service in Great Britain. For 20 years he directed all Church public communications. In 1951 he was named executive secretary of the General Missionary Committee, managing the entire missionary program of the Church, and served in this capacity for seven years.

On 6 April 1958, while serving as president of the East Millcreek Stake in Salt Lake City (a stake is similar to a diocese), President Hinckley was appointed as a general authority, or senior full-time leader of the Church. In this capacity he served as an assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles before being appointed to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on 5 October 1961.

President Hinckley received a number of educational honors, including the Distinguished Citizen Award from Southern Utah University; the Distinguished Alumni Award from the University of Utah; and honorary doctorates from Westminster College, Utah State University, University of Utah, Brigham Young University, Southern Utah University, Utah Valley State College and Salt Lake Community College. The Gordon B. Hinckley Endowment for British Studies, a program focused on the arts, literature and history of the United Kingdom, was established at the University of Utah.

President Hinckley was awarded the Silver Buffalo Award by the Boy Scouts of America; was honored by the National Conference for Community and Justice (formerly the National Conference of Christians and Jews) for his contributions to tolerance and understanding in the world; and received the Distinguished Service Award from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In 2004, President Hinckley was also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President George W. Bush in the White House.

In March 2000 President Hinckley addressed the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. He also addressed the Religion Newswriters Association and the U.S. Conference of Mayors and twice addressed the Los Angeles World Affairs Council.

President Hinckley wrote and edited several books and numerous manuals, pamphlets and scripts, including a best-selling book, Standing for Something, aimed at a general audience. In it he championed the virtues of love, honesty, morality, civility, learning, forgiveness, mercy, thrift and industry, gratitude, optimism and faith. He also testified of what he called the “guardians of virtue,” namely traditional marriage and family.

President Hinckley married Marjorie Pay in the Salt Lake Temple in 1937. They have five children and 25 grandchildren. Sister Hinckley passed away 6 April 2004.

Excommunicated Part 6 of 7

2008-01-28T07:57:00.001-08:00

A reply.

2008-01-14T08:13:00.000-08:00

An LDS member posted this reply under my 21 questions part 2 topic on Dec 31 2007.

Starting To Learn said...

It appears that you have found some answers to the LDS Q&A and it also appears that you have tried to be fair, however it appears that you have found most of your answers from anti-Mormon sources that quote Mormon sources. Most of the quotes you give and the sources you cite are not ones that are commonly used within the Church.

You might get more accurate insight to the questions and the LDS responses by doing your research at lds.org. That website contains all of the scriptures, lesson manuals, magazines and major conference addresses by the Church. Resources go back 30 years. That is what Mormons have been taught for at least that time frame. You can also get a better sense of what the "core" doctrines of the Church are by noting how often certain things doctrinal topics are addressed.

For example, the topics of loving God, worshiping God and His Son, serving God and Man constitute the vast majority of the teachings of the Church. The topic of becoming like God is only rarely mentioned. While it might be a belief of members of the Church, it is not the central belief or focus of the Church.

I don't believe that the LDS Church is lying in answer to the questions - they are stating what the current beliefs of the Church are. It's just that what some early leader of the Church may or may not have said or taught in the past doesn't make it current binding doctrine of the Church.

8:56 AM, December 31, 2007

When People who post things saying I am lying, not honest or in correct in any way, I ask them to prove it, if they do not then I assume they are lying or they simply believe if they say I am wrong people will simply believe them because they said so.

To be honest I have had a least one LDS member tell me I was wrong and showed why and how, I admitted such and moved on. This was my reply to Starting to learn, from before

Hello Starting, You said however it appears that you have found most of your answers from anti-Mormon sources that quote Mormon sources.

I stated in Part 1 I own all the sources I quote from, To prove this over the years I have scanned copies of these sources onto my blog, I also can Photo copy these and mail them out if people do not believe me. So please be more spefic and show me from the quotes I used by your Prophets like J.F.S, Or the BoM and the D and C or the J.o.D, or the many other sourses I quoted, Show me how or where they are in error and how they are effected by Anti-Mormon Sites, if I must, I can and will scan them onto my blog.

your Correct, I try and be fair and honest. and in order to remain fair and honest I quote only from sources I own and scan them onto my blog as evidence. I only quoted from ONE SINGLE source I do not own and, and stated very clearly I do not own that source. Rick b

I am still waiting for my reply as to how I was wrong. Honestly I tire of the LDS claiming to be honest in how they teach or handle things, yet they accuse us non-LDS of being Dishonest. I have been honest in my approach on this blog and show both sides and allow both sides to state what they believe. If I am wrong then show me, If I am correct, then you better honestly examine your teaching unless you stand before the Lord on that last day and be told I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME INTO EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. Rick b

Excommunicated Part 5 of 7

2008-01-08T15:52:00.001-08:00

21 Questions part 2

2007-12-31T07:09:00.000-08:00

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become "gods and goddesses" after death?

A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being 'joint heirs with Christ' reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.

Ricks reply.
they lie again, but also not every LDS is up on the doctrine, so not every one is fully aware of their own teachings.
The Doctrine & Covenants states:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, ...Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; ...and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, ...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-22)

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.69 - p.70:

THE STRAITNESS OF THE WAY. Mortality is the testing or proving ground for exaltation to find out who among the children of God are worthy to become Gods themselves, and the Lord has informed us that "few there be that find it."

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.97 - p.98:

ALL EXALTED MEN BECOME GODS. To believe that Adam is a god should not be strange to any person who accepts the Bible. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God, he answered the Jews: "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Joseph Smith taught a plurality of gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a god.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.9:

What is eternal life? It is to have "a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." No one receives eternal life except those who receive the exaltation. Eternal life is the greatest gift of God; immortality is not.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.39:

SONS OF GOD BECOME GODS. If the faithful, who keep the commandments of the Father, are his sons, then they are heirs of the kingdom and shall receive of the fulness of the Father's glory, even until they become like the Father. And how can they be perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect if they are not like him? . . . And if they receive his fulness and his glory, and if "all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs," how can they receive these blessings and not become gods? They cannot.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.44:

Parents will have eternal claim upon their posterity and will have the gift of eternal increase, if they obtain the exaltation. This is the crowning glory in the kingdom of God, and they will have no end. When the Lord says they will have no end, he means that all who attain to this glory will have the blessing of the continuation of the "seeds" forever. Those who fail to obtain this blessing come to the "deaths," which means that they will have no increase, forever. All who obtain this exaltation will have the privilege of completing the full measure of their existence, and they will have a posterity that will be as innumerable as the stars of heaven.

If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and his daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.2:

GODHOOD

Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term "godhood" denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. Such a state is to be enjoyed by all exalted, embodied, intelligent beings (see Deification; Eternal Progression; Exaltation; God; Perfection). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all resurrected and perfected mortals become gods (cf. Gen. 3:22; Matt. 5:48). They will dwell again with God the Father, and live and act like him in endless worlds of happiness, power, love, glory, and knowledge; above all, they will have the power of procreating endless lives. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood (see Christology) and that he marked the path and led the way for others likewise to become exalted divine beings by following him (cf. John 14:3).

Journal of Discourses, Vol.2, p.85 - p.86, Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854:

When the servants of God and their wives go to heaven there is an eternal union, and they will multiply and replenish the world to which they are going.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.22, p.125, George Q. Cannon, October 31, 1880:

Every man and every woman who prays unto the Father, who is in the habit of doing so, expresses that desire in his or her prayer--that we may be counted worthy to receive celestial glory and exaltation in the presence of God and the Lamb. ... When we talk about celestial glory, we talk of the condition of endless increase; if we obtain celestial glory in the fullest sense of the word, then we have wives and children in eternity, we have the power of endless lives granted unto us, the power of propagation that will endure through all eternity, all being fathers and mothers in eternity; fathers of fathers, and mothers of mothers, kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and shall I say more? Yes, all becoming gods.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that women can only gain access to heaven with a special pass or codewords?

A: No.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that women must serve men on both Earth and in heaven?

A: Absolutely not. Mormons believe that women and men are complete equals before God and in relation to the blessings available in the Church.

Ricks reply,
From what I know this is correct in the LDS answer, I could be wrong though. But I have nothing written stating otherwise in the LDS books I own.

Q: Is there such a thing as Mormon "underwear"? if so, are all Mormons required to wear it? What does it symbolize?

A: Like members of many religious faiths, Latter-day Saints wear religious clothing. But members of other faiths — typically those involved in permanent pastoral ministries or religious services — usually wear religious garments as outer ceremonial vestments or symbols of recognition. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, garments are worn beneath street clothing as a personal and private reminder of commitments to God.
Garments are considered sacred by Church members and are not regarded as a topic for casual conversation.

Ricks reply.
Just like the LDS said "Garments are considered sacred by Church members and are not regarded as a topic for casual conversation."
You will not get them to talk about what goes on in the temple. If you look over various websites or blogs, it really does not matter if they are Non-LDS or Ex-LDS if they claim they know what goes on in the temple, then be careful in my opinion. I say this because, Not all LDS can enter the temple and many have never entered it, so for many LDS they really would not know what goes on in the temple. If you speak with a temple Mormon and claim you heard that, this or that goes on in the temple, they will not admit to it anyway and claim, your not allowed to enter and the person you spoke with most likely could not enter either so you cannot know for sure if the info is correct or not. The temple worthy mormon is about as likely to share what goes on in the temple as you are about to share what takes place between you and your wife during sex. My advice on this would be to say, This is what the Bible teaches on the temple, this is what I see in the LDS community, their is a world of difference.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe in the existence of another physical planet or planets, where Mormons will "rule" after their death and ascension?

A: No.

Ricks reply.
I am not aware that they will rule a planet, I guess they will, if you re-read what was written under the question of will you be a God, then it would stand to reason, if your going to be a God, you will rule something or some place. But other than that, Nothing is written that I am aware of, but then their is so much, I could have missed something.

Q: What specifically does the Mormon Church say about African-Americans and Native Americans?

A: Mormons believe that all mankind are sons and daughters of God and should be loved and respected as such. The blessings of the gospel are available to all.

Ricks reply.
The LDS really need to read their Bible better, We know that the Bible teaches that not everyone is a Child of God. We are ALL Gods creation, but we are not ALL children of God. We know the Bible teaches their are Enemies of God. But we are not Enemies due to the Color of our Skin. Here is what the LDS church taught at one time.
Apostle McConkie said that "those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, pp.476-77).

Cain slew his brother ... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.... How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, pp.290-91).

Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth president of the Mormon Church taught that blacks would never hold the priesthood as long as "time endures":

Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel.... they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning (The Way To Perfection, 1935, p.101).

In Joseph Smith's History of the Church, we read that "the negroes" are the "sons of Cain" (vol. 4, p.501). Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explains the curse put on Cain as follows:

Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth.... he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshiped Lucifer, and slew Abel....

As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones to eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan (Mormon Doctrine, 1958. p.l02).

December 1830, it is stated that the "children of Canaan" were black: "For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people" (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses 7:8).

Brigham Young declared that the flat nose and black skin were part of the mark put upon the descendants of Cain: "Cain slew his brother... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin ..." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.290).

Mormon leaders taught that it was Ham's descendants who were "cursed as to the priesthood" after the flood. They claimed that Ham married a black woman named Egyptus, and that the curse was continued "through Ham's wife." Bruce R. McConkie said that "Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the Negro lineage through the flood" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477).

John Taylor, the third president of the church, likewise maintained: "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God..." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 22. p.304).

Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.

From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.

The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden.

When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham. sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham....

Pharaoh, being a righteous man,... seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers ... even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 1:21-26).

Mormon writer Arthur M. Richardson made this statement concerning blacks: "Referring to Elder Hyde's statement we find, then, that those assigned to a dishonorable body on this earth came through the accursed lineage of Canaan through Ham's wife who was a descendant of the first murderer Cain ..." (That Ye May Not Be Deceived, pp.6-7).

Briefly stated, then, the Mormon doctrine concerning blacks was this: In the "pre-existence" the blacks "lent an influence to the devil." Because of their "unfaithfulness in the spirit world," they were "assigned to a dishonorable body on this earth." They came through the "accursed lineage of Canaan," and were "marked" with a "flat nose" and a "black covering" which is "emblematic of eternal darkness." They were an "inferior" race. In fact, they were a "representation" of the "devil" upon the earth. They were "not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned," and they were "not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel." They were "denied the priesthood," and they could not be married in a Mormon temple. But, "in spite" of all they "did in the pre-existence," they could be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. If a black man was faithful all his life he could enter the celestial kingdom.

Brigham Young stated that if a person who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with a black the penalty is death on the spot: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p.110).

Q: What are or were the "Golden Plates"?

A: The Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith from records made on plates of gold, similar to metal plates that have been found in other ancient cultures. It contained a history of peoples in the Western Hemisphere including an appearance by the Savior to them. As such, the Book of Mormon is considered a second testimony of Jesus Christ.

Ricks reply.
That's about correct, the only problem is, the plates were brought back up into heaven, According to the LDS, So know we have no evidence they were real or ever existed, like we do with the dead sea scrolls.

Q: Are consumption of alcohol and tobacco prohibited or simply discouraged?

A: It is against the teachings of the Church to use alcohol and tobacco or to drink tea and coffee.

Q: Does the Church also ban the consumption of "hot drinks"? And does that apply specifically to caffeinated drinks?

A: It is against the teachings of the Church to use alcohol and tobacco or to drink tea and coffee.

Ricks reply.
This is taken from a teaching called, The Word Of Wisdom, (WoW).
I will post the entire WoW, Over all I think if you want to follow it by choice, it has good health benefits, but to say, this is the Word of the Lord is wrong, this clearly goes against what God told peter when he said, do not call anything common or unclean that I made clean.

Then when you read the WoW, notice it says, Hot Drinks. The LDS church defines Hot Drinks as Coffee or tea, but this does not included Hot Chocolate. And it is the CHURCH That says what hot drinks are, not the WoW. Then if you read carefully the WoW and break it down, many LDS do not follow it to the letter, they pretty much only follow the do not drink Coffee or tea part.

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.
1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Q: Why do Mormons go from door to door?

A: Christ admonished his disciples to take the gospel to the world. The Church follows that admonition and sends missionaries throughout the world.
Ricks reply.
Every Mormon Missionary I have ever spoken with states this is the case.

Q: What do the Mormons believe about the family?

A: Mormons believe that the family is the foundation for this life and the life to come.

Ricks reply.
Mormons do focus on the family. They believe and teach Family's are forever. They believe and teach we will be married in the heavens, even though Jesus taught other wise. Also familys cannot be forever, if their are 3 different heavens and outer darkness. Some family's will go onto be gods while others will not have converted so they will not enter the highest heaven. So while it sounds good on paper, it simply is not going to happen, even in Mormon beliefes.

Q: Can someone who may never marry in life have eternal marriage?

A: God will not withhold blessings from any of his children who may not have the opportunity to marry in this life.

Ricks reply.
This is not true, read,

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 131
Instructions by Joseph Smith the Prophet, given at Ramus, Illinois, May 16 and 17, 1843. HC 5: 392–393.
1–4, Celestial marriage is essential to exaltation in the highest heaven; 5–6, How men are sealed up unto eternal life; 7–8, All spirit is matter.
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.
6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Bruce McConkie wrote, "Celestial marriage is the gate to exaltation, and exaltation consists in the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Exaltation is…the kind of life which God lives" (Mormon Doctrine pg. 257). Celestial marriage is an absolute necessity to reach this desired goal. Its importance in the place of salvation and exaltation cannot be overestimated. "The most important things that any member of (the LDS Church) ever does in this world are: 1) To marry the right person, in the right place, by the right authority; and 2) To keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony…" (Mormon Doctrine pg. 118).

LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "Any young man who carelessly neglects this great commandment to marry, or who does not marry because of a selfish desire to avoid the responsibilities which married life will bring, is taking a course which is displeasing in the sight of God…There can be no exaltation without it. If a man refuses…he is taking a course which may bar him forever from (exaltation)." (Doctrines of Salvation 2:74).

Let me end with this, If the LDS really hold to their own teachings and believe the Articles of faith to be true, then this is what Number 13 says

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

They should be more open an honest in their answers if they want to teach A of F 13.
Rick b

21 Questions Answered About Mormon Faith.

2007-12-25T06:50:00.000-08:00

I am taking a break from the youtube 7 part story. It seems fox news did a story about asking 21 questions to the LDS church, here is the link, 21 questions

I will post the question asked, the answer given from the LDS church then my answer to the question. This link was sent to me by the pastor of my Church, he wanted my thoughts so he could then forward it on to other pastors. This is so long I do not know yet if I will keep it in two parts or turn it into 3.

Unless otherwise stated, I own all the books I quote from or mention as a source of reference.

Q: Why do some call the Church a cult?

A: For the most part, this seems to stem from a lack of understanding about the Church and its core doctrines and beliefs. Under those circumstances it is too easy to label a religion or other organization that is not well-known with an inflammatory term like 'cult.' Famed scholar of religion Martin Marty has said a cult means a church you don't personally happen to like. We don't believe any organization should be subjected to a label that has come to be as pejorative as that one.

Rick's Reply.
The LDS church is a Cult because they deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. The LDS church has taught that Jesus is just one god and their are millions of Gods. One place this is taught is in the Journal Of Discourses, (J.O.D) Volume 6:1-11 Known among Mormons as the King Follet Discourse. The LDS church denys the Trinity also, they teach that Jesus is one of 3 gods. They teach that the Christian Trinity is really the godhead made up of 3 gods. Sadly Joseph Smith at on time denied the Holy Spirit, He taught the Holy Spirit was the Mind of God, that teaching is found in the Oringal Lecture on Faith.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Ricks Reply.
The Answer the LDS church gave is the standard answer, Here is what they seem to forget to tell you. While they believe Jesus did die on the Cross, they believe the Atonement really took place in the Garden when Jesus sweated great drops of blood. I do not own this book for the source.

( On page fourteen of his book, "Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson," the thirteenth president of the LDS Church stated it was in the Garden of Gethsemane that Christ "suffered as only as God would suffer, bearing our griefs, carrying our sorrows, being wounded for our transgressions, voluntarily submitting Himself to the iniquity of us all, just as Isaiah prophesied."
He further stated on that same page: "It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.15).

I read the BoM and Doctrine and Covenants, here is what I found in my reading.
We find in 2 Nephi 2:19 and Alma 42:2 only speaking about Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the garden. And Helaman 7:10 and 9:8,11 speaking about Nephi's garden No mention of the Shedding of Blood for our sins. But we Do read about the Cross or Christ being crucified on the cross for our Sins in the BoM and D and C here in these verses.

Mosiah 3:8-9
Helman 8:14-15 and 14:13-21
3 Nephi 11:14-17 and 20:44 and 27:14 and 28:6-7
Mormon 3:21
Ether 4:1
Moroni 5:1-2 and 10:33
then over in D and C in this long list of verses.
18:11-12 20:23 20:79 21:9 27:2 35:2 45:4,51,52 53:2 76:39,41,69 110:3-5

Q: Does the Church believe in the divinity of Jesus?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Ricks reply.
This was pretty much answered in the above questions.

Q: Does the Church believe that God is a physical being?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Ricks Reply
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones:
D and C 130:22
Articles of Faith. pg 43

Mormon scripture teaches that God is a spirit:
Alma 18:26-28 and 22:9-11.

The Bible teaches that God is a Spirit:
John 4:24
Luke 24:39
Jeremiah 23:24
Psalms 139:7-10

Q: If so, does the Church believe that God lives on a planet named Kolob?

A: 'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did not provide a full description or explanation of Kolob nor did he assign the idea particular significance in relation to the Church’s core doctrines.

Q: Where is the planet Kolob? What significance does the planet have to Mormons?

A: 'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did not provide a full description or explanation of Kolob nor did he assign the idea particular significance in relation to the Church’s core doctrines.

Ricks Reply.
The LDS reply is about what they believe, but their is more information found in their book, The Pearl of great price. This is the 4th book in their standerd works. Here is what is found in the pearl of great price.

1.
Abr. 3: 3-4, 9, 16
3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.
2.
Abr. 5: 13
13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that God and Mary had physical sex to conceive Jesus?

A: The Church does not claim to know how Jesus was conceived but believes the Bible and Book of Mormon references to Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary.

Ricks Reply.
For the most part, this is a flat out lie. With that said, let me add this, Not every LDS Believes this and not every LDS has seen the LDS teachings that show otherwise. So here are some LDS teachings on this.

He [God] created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. (BY, J.O.D 11:122).

The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers (BY, J.O.D 8:115).

In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it (HK, J.O.D 8:211).

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost....

...Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea"if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties" (BY, J.O.D 1:50-51)

When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me (BY, J.O.D 4:218)

...but it was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father; that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father. There were millions of sons and daughters whom He begat before the foundation of the world, but they were spirits, and not bodies of flesh and bones; whereas, both the spirit and body of Jesus were begotten by the Father the spirit having been begotten in heaven many ages before the tabernacle was begotten upon the earth. The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Saviour unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having created all men and women, had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure; He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct. It was also lawful in Him, after having thus dealt with Mary, to give Mary to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity (OP, The Seer, p. 158).

CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF HOLY GHOST. I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that He was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father....Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God! (JFS, DoS 1:18).

Under the topic "Only Begotten Son" in Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie wrote,

These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers (pp. 546-547).

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (1 Ne. 11) (Ibid. p. 742).

James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, Ch.3, p.22

What other man has lived with power to withstand death, over whom death could not prevail except through his own submission? Yet Jesus Christ could not be slain until His "hour had come," and that, the hour in which He voluntarily surrendered His life, and permitted His own decease through an act of will. Born of a mortal mother He inherited the capacity to die; begotten by an immortal Sire He possessed as a heritage the power to withstand death indefinitely. He literally gave up His life; to this effect is His own affirmation: "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." And further: "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." Only such a One could conquer death; in none but Jesus the Christ was realized this requisite condition of a Redeemer of the world.
James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, Ch.25, p.418 - p.419

With effective repetition Jesus continued: "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." For this cause was Jesus the Father's Beloved Son -- that He was ready to lay down His life for the sake of the sheep. That the sacrifice He was soon to render was in fact voluntary, and not a forfeiture under compulsion, is solemnly affirmed in the Savior's words: "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." The certainty of His death and of His subsequent resurrection are here reiterated. A natural effect of His immortal origin, as the earth-born Son of an immortal Sire, was that He Was immune to death except as He surrendered thereto. The life of Jesus the Christ could not be taken save as He willed and allowed. The power to lay down His life was inherent in Himself, as was the power to take up His slain body in an immortalized state. These teachings caused further division among the Jews. Some pretended to dispose of the matter by voicing anew the foolish assumption that Jesus was but an insane demoniac, and that therefore His words were not worthy of attention. Others with consistency said "These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?" So it was that a few believed, many doubted though partly convinced, and some condemned.
Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol.3, p.138

The express image of his person] What more need be said? God the Eternal Father is the Father; the Son of God is the Son. A father is a father, and a son is a son. The Father begets; the Son is begotten; they are Parent and Child; Sire and Son look alike, so much so that they are the express image of each other's persons. The substance composing the body of one is identical in appearance to that composing the body of the other. What could be plainer?

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol.3, p.141
Begotten] Begotten means begotten; it means Christ's mortal body was procreated by an Eternal Sire; it means God is the Father of Christ, "after the manner of the flesh." (1 Ne. 11:18.)

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe Jesus appeared in North America after his crucifixion and resurrection?

A: The appearance of Jesus in the Western Hemisphere shortly after his resurrection is described in the Book of Mormon. Mormons believe that when Christ told his disciples in the Bible He had other 'sheep' who should receive his message he was referring to those people in the Western Hemisphere.

Q: If so, when did this happen? And under what circumstances?

A: The appearance of Jesus in the Western Hemisphere shortly after his resurrection is described in the Book of Mormon. Mormons believe that when Christ told his disciples in the Bible He had other 'sheep' who should receive his message he was referring to those people in the Western Hemisphere.

Ricks Reply.
For the most part they do believe this, otherwise theirs not much to it.

Excommunicated Part 4 of 7

2007-12-17T06:11:00.001-08:00

Excommunicated Part 3 of 7

2007-12-10T09:38:00.001-08:00